[Andrew Summerell]

Cost is not too much of an issue for me, as I am happy to pay the money for something that I believe is architecturally sound.

In Australia, we are getting quite a few expensive ‘pay to play’ courses, but most of them I consider to be play once or twice type courses, so it’s not that bad.

If I can’t get on to Royal Melbourne with a member, I would pay the green fee every time.

[John Kavanaugh]

Poor is not defined by what you make..it is a factor of the lifestyle the women both in and out of your life enjoy.

[Kalen Braley]

Poor is not defined by what you make..it is a factor of the lifestyle the women both in and out of your life enjoy.

John,

Did you mean to say the women that you're wife doesn't know about??

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think that warrents, deserves. requires or should get in an open forum an explanation.

[Matt_Ward]

As an FYI -- I used to frequent Bethpage State Park on a steady basis -- usually every weekend during the summer roughly abut a decade ago. This was before the transformation that has taken hold.

No doubt the fanfare attached to the Black and the overall park is well deserved. However, the fee increases have minimized my rounds at the Black now to at most one or two. It's not that I don't have the funds but when you compute the travel time, tolls, gas and then the incessant waiting that only makes the total golf round go to 5 1/2 hours or more -- the issue of my convenience becomes a big time inconvenience.

Clearly, there are many more people now going to the facility but my time -- as much as my money -- likely is ahead of my pure architectural interests. Only when I target certain specific courses in my neck of the woods will I push the architecture interest to the top of the charts. No doubt I do the same when traveling but going to an area on a fairly irregular basis is far different than where you play when home.

[Andrew Summerell]

Matt,

I agree with you about the time management issue. My 2 experiences at Bethpage Black were very long days, including a long wait to get to the 1st tee & a slow round. If I lived in the area, I too would be unable to handle that more than once or twice a year.

It also comes down to preferences. When I go to Scotland, I enjoy a lot of the historic & less popular courses, more because that’s what I like. One of my priorities is always the West links at North Berwick, but from there I’m happy to hang around & play Dunbar, Craiglaw, Kilspindie, Luffness New & even the Glen course.

So, when I’m traveling, my interests actually save me money, because many of the courses I want to play don’t cost as much as some of the more popular courses.

[Jon Wiggett]

It is sad thing to see how many of the courses in scotland that were resonably priced in the 1980's have gone crazy with their prices in recent years. Fortunately there are enough good courses in Scotland priced correctly. I wouldn't pay more than £75 to £80 for even a great course.

[Andrew Balakshin]

The price of a course is a big deal to me. However, I find that if I want to play a specific course I will usually get on it somehow (within reason). Even if it means waiting for the off-season weekday twilight rate.

I am the type of golfer that would much rather play a good course during an off peak time than an average course in prime time.

Since all of us on this website enjoy well designed golf courses, I am guessing that the majority of you feel the same way.

[Jeff Doerr]

I live with a golf budget that has some flexibility.

Case in point - going to Las Vegas in July. I will play somewhere, but I can't see spending $500 for Shadow Creek or Cascata. Possibly if they were last on the list of "need to play" but I've not played Wolf Creek, Paiute, or Primm Valley, so those are my likely spots.

[michael j fay]

I've played golf for 50 years. I have been a member at four different courses.

I currently play most of my golf at Southern Pines CC at a cost of $ 800.00 a year. I pay no minimum for food I do not eat. I pay no assessments.

The course condition is a little below average but on a daily basis there are between 8 and 25 players that show up for a skins game.

As a traveling golfer I see a lot of Country Clubs. I have reached the conclusion that around 25 % of these clubs will disappear over the next decade because of the cost factor. If they want to survive they should get out of the food business. I marvel at the thousands of clubs that believe that they can run a white table cloth restaurant five nights a week with a clientele of 300-500 patrons. It is outright ludicrous and will lead to the demise of many of them because it runs the cost much higher than it should be.

Golf is much more expensive than it should be and mostly because of the non-golf entities people believe they need.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

I have never read such a load of crap in my life.  Your plight is not new or uncommon in the golf world.  It is called whipped and for every guy like you there is another man waiting to take your place.  Sometimes when we are at the club we tell stories of past club champions who one day got a call and never came back...We thought we would miss them, we may have even wondered how the club or our weekend games would survive without them but there was always someone in the wings.  Now at 47 I am in the middle of the age pack and am starting to see old friends die and new friends learn how to break par and take my money.  I think you have made a good choice but don't worry the tee sheet will remain full...or as full as I can stand it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Shivas,
I was going to say that you've just hit the wall as many guys do when they hit a certain age/level of family responsibility. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank John for saving me a lot of typing.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dave,

I also said earlier that at private clubs the golf is free, its keeping other people off the course that is expensive.  I wouldn't pay the high priced greenfees either if I were you and I don't.  I doubt that golf was ever meant to be a public game and that faction is dying out given the paranoia so many men buy into these days when it comes to raising children and keeping wives.  On the other hand, I do wonder how things are going out on the west side of the seminal city of our state.  Why not move out west and join Butler National and take the train into work from there?  It seems a utopian situation for a guy like you as it would be for me (cept you could get in).  I'll be up at the Butler Cup this summer and check the place out...tell me if you want me to put in a good word.

[John Kavanaugh]

Shivas,

One more thing since it is early and time to wake up and smell the coffee.  This is from the heart my friend because it hits close to home for me as well.  You have the Daddy David Duval Disease (Quads)..You  don't play as often because you suck.

[Chris Cupit]

Shivas,

I do agree that the two largest threats to the game are:

Cost and Time.

But, new figures in for the NGCOA show that rounds are almost back to 2002 levels (not that that is a great baseline ).  No real net gain in new golfers or rounds played--hard core golfers are playing more right now and they are keeping the rounds flat.

One idea gaining popularity is to "forget" about going after the new guy and try and "compete" for the avid guys attention.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Shivas,

You hit the nail on the head with your comment "at $20 a round, the equation is different."

What you're lamenting is the pathetic state of golf in the Chicago metro area, especially the North Shore.  The public courses are WAY overcrowded and mostly overpriced.  The private courses are overpriced, and some of them may well be overcrowded also--the rest seem to be quite comfortable with their current memberships, thank you very much.  There may be exceptions to the latter in the Southwest suburbs, but that's impractical for us North Shore residents.  On top of that, as Doak notes in the Confidential Guide, the "Chicago Style" of GCA is more often than not just plain dull.

When my youngest son graduates from New Trier in a few years, I'll be looking at making a change in favor of golf...

[Chris Cupit]

Shivas,

The "worst" thing during the boom was the entry of a lot of new poorly run courses to the market that were either subsidized through a development of simply given too much capital by some lender.

Consumers benefited from overdevelopment, more courses and lower prices.

The last couple of years has seen an adjustment and (last year) a net DECREASE of course openings.  Tougher times weed out those operations that should never have opened in the first place.  

For owners this is a good thing and ultimately for golf it's good--you need golf to remain econmically viable.  While I am not in the daily fee market, it has been very hard hit in my region and many of the CCFAD have converted to privates in order to have a dues stream.  Crooked Creek, White Columns, are two I know of.  

Very high end clubs are doing well (and always will) and lower end clubs are doing OK.  The ones in the middle are getting "whipsawed"  They are not nice enough or fancy enough to make the jump up to the "big boys" and people know it and see that they haven't "arrived" yet (and maybe never will).  These middle clubs do have just enough "fancy" in them that their expenses are high and they find it hard to drop initiation fees, drop fees, lower quality and try and be competitive at the "lower" threshold.  Once you're used to spending it, it's hard to throttle it back.

Metropolitan CC, Centennial CC, Lanier GC, 9 holes at Berkely Hills CC and a few more to come have all been lost to development.  Another course, Horseshoe Bend CC that once comanded an ID of $22,500 (still) has monthly  dues of $475 and once held a Senior PGA Tour event has just emerged from a bankruptcy that was applied for to avoid foreclsure!

Good, affordable golf is hard to come by.  Those that can do it will have an audience for sure but when consumer expectations get so skewed (I call it the Wal-Mart effect) that they expect prices to drop! year to year, well in this industry with so many high and ever increasing fixed costs, you can't have it both ways--cheap and consistently good.  Players' expectations at very affordable prices have to be in line.

[Chris Cupit]

Shivas,

You hit the nail on the head with your comment "at $20 a round, the equation is different."

I hate to be so negative but in a large city in the United States a $20 round at a daily fee course will be on a goat track in most every case.

Maybe for very, very basic golf but that's about it.  In a city, the value of land alone vs. the ROI on $20 rounds of golf is a no-brainer and it ain't in favor of the golf!

$20 rounds must either be subsidized by taxpapyers (ridicuousley unfair--if the state wants to compel people to pay taxes for greenspace, it should at least be for greenspace everyone, not just a small niche can enjoy) OR subsidized by an owner who is running a course just for fun with no economic motive.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Shivas,

You hit the nail on the head with your comment "at $20 a round, the equation is different."

I hate to be so negative but in a large city in the United States a $20 round at a daily fee course will be on a goat track in most every case.

Chris, you're no doubt correct that a $20 golf course near a major metro area is mostly unsustainable.  I took Shivas' comment to be mainly rhetorical--i.e., the typical price point in Chicago (>$100) vs. a rural location ($50 or less).  

But there's some great golf in and around Indianapolis that is closer to $50 than $100.

And there's one course, Spring Valley, a mostly preserved Langford-Moreau on the border of Wisconsin about 45 minutes from my house, that has been owned > 30 years by a gentleman who's there nearly every day and asks just $22 for weekend play.  A couple can play all year for $1,000.  I would grade it a "C" for conditioning, though since Dan Moore only introduced me to it late last year I haven't yet seen it in the middle of summer.  The owner has planted too many trees for my taste, but not so many as to ruin the course.  He's not doing it for "fun" but I doubt he wants the headache of trying to meet expectations that come with higher prices.

The quality of the golf course architecture and the price has caused me to completely reevaluate what I'm willing to pay for golf.  

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

You raise a good point -- the more addicted players from years past are likely playing less for any of the reasons you previously mentioned.

Here in NJ -- America's 8th most expensive golf market -- you now even see a large bucket of balls going for $12. Factor in younger people playing with parents or simply going to the range and the cost is indeed growing and growing.

No doubt those in the upper income range have a good bit more options on what they choose to do, however, for those below such a high level the availability to play is indeed shrinking.

Like I said before -- I don't play now for the sake of just playing. I generally try to tie the golf I do play with some sort of reason that goes beyond just playing for the sake of playing.

[Andy Troeger]

Well...seeing as I'm contemplating whether I should play most of my golf at the local muni or at the UNM course (frontrunner--good architecture and cost-effective for locals), I'd have to say cost is pretty high for me playing at home. I splurge when I go out of town.

[Travis Ripley]

Well...seeing as I'm contemplating whether I should play most of my golf at the local muni or at the UNM course (frontrunner--good architecture and cost-effective for locals), I'd have to say cost is pretty high for me playing at home. I splurge when I go out of town.

i don't know much about the UNM course, but while i live in Colorado my home-town is Norman, OK.  and the U of Oklahoma course there--Perry Maxwell original, Bob Cupp re-do is a heckuva bargain for a membership, unlimited range balls and a very good practice facility.  plus, i can sponge off my pops connections to play Oak Tree, Southern Hills, Dornick Hills, and OKC G and CC from time to time......the latter all also P. Maxwell.

   

[Jim_Kennedy]

$20 rounds must either be subsidized by taxpayers (ridiculously unfair--if the state wants to compel people to pay taxes for greenspace, it should at least be for greenspace everyone, not just a small niche can enjoy)-Chris Cupit

A specious argument, you're forgetting swimming pools, baseball/ football/ soccer fields, nature trails, basketball/tennis/squash courts, rec centers, ski areas, boat launches, playgrounds for children, skate parks, etc., etc., etc.. They're all great quality of life amenities used by villages/cities/towns to sell themselves.

If your personal politics don't jive with these municipal frivolities please disregard this post.  
   
 

Matt,
I'll 'treat' myself once every two months or so. I'm more interested in finding reasonably priced interesting courses that aren't crowded. Luckily there are quite a few within an hour or two from here.

[Jason McNamara]

What you're lamenting is the pathetic state of golf in the Chicago metro area, especially the North Shore.  The public courses are WAY overcrowded and mostly overpriced.

How can they be both?

[Chris Cupit]

$20 rounds must either be subsidized by taxpayers (ridiculously unfair--if the state wants to compel people to pay taxes for greenspace, it should at least be for greenspace everyone, not just a small niche can enjoy)-Chris Cupit

A specious argument, you're forgetting swimming pools, baseball/ football/ soccer fields, nature trails, basketball/tennis/squash courts, rec centers, ski areas, boat launches, playgrounds for children, skate parks, etc., etc., etc.. They're all great quality of life amenities used by villages/cities/towns to sell themselves.

If your personal politics don't jive with these municipal frivolities please disregard this post.  
   
 

Very nice point.  I need to think some more.

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