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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2007, 09:59:18 PM »
The point will all be moot in about 40 years anyway. Golfers who are in their teens and twenties now will look back on us dinosaurs walking the course in much the same way I look back at someone playing in a coat and tie. They won't be able to imagine why it ever seemed like a good idea not to ride in a cart.

Too true and too sad.  A couple of years ago I was playing the Balcomie Links at Crail when I spotted an electric cart  :o  with an orange flag, which I guess designated it for disabled golfers who couldn't play otherwise.

However, the two occupants of the cart were young guys in their 20's who appeared to be hale and hearty!  

A revoltin' development.  :P
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 10:00:48 PM by Bill_McBride »

Brent Hutto

Re:Push carts
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2007, 10:04:29 PM »
Bill,

I almost said "Golfers in the USA..." but on second thought I realized that was probably hopelessly optimistic.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2007, 10:09:58 PM »
Several points.I dont have a problem with paying a fee.Maybe I would prefer my own cart but we are a 500 member club and compromise is necessary.I dont want denim and teeshirts,so we all probably draw a line somewhere.I enjoy a little structure.At least we are respecting the game.Also,with the costs of initiation fees and waiting lists,not to mention how little you really get for a share of stock,it is much cheaper to pay a few things you dont like rather than change clubs.The only thing I have against munys are pace of play and sometimes conditioning.Munys and clubs both have mostly good and a few bad people.Lets look at the positive:people are getting out of carts and walking.

Brent Hutto

Re:Push carts
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2007, 10:19:59 PM »
mike,

I'm just the opposite, I guess. If something I'm doing costs the club money I want to pay. That includes if they want to buy push carts and rent them out and it certainly includes the couple bucks per round "usage fee" I pay for walking (which could fairly be doubled at our club IMO).

But if they really need more money than I'm paying in dues and assessments, then I want to see the dues and/or assessments raised to keep the finanaces solid. I hate being nickel and dimed as a way to lower the (apparent) straightforward cost of supporting the club. You end up with a bunch of unintended consequences and perverse incentives if you're not careful.

Mickey Boland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2007, 10:30:03 PM »
Chris,

I think push carts are great if they all look the same and are maintained the same by the club.  



So I guess the guys at the various clubs I see that have blue carts, maroon carts, yellow carts, camo-painted carts, black carts with lifters, etc. etc. etc. would, by this same reasoning, be excluded.  Everybody needs to own a green cart with no extra amenities?

Chris,

You're right.  Your course is a private course that has known policies for the members going in.  Seems to be working for you, and that's great.

But, I'm in the camp of not understanding the need to have a uniform look to push carts.  Is it really that big of a deal?  Do you allow privately-owned golf carts at your facility, and if so do they all have to have a uniform appearance?

I bought a push cart last year before my first trip to Scotland to get in good walking shape.  Since then, a number of guys in my regular group have purchased them also, to the extent that we now regularly have 8 walkers in our Saturday morning group.  The fact that they aren't all blue or green or whatever does not seem to diminish whatever value we perceive our club offers us.  Haven't heard any gossip around the club that we're pulling down property values, or attracting riff-raff.  We don't have a caddy program, and my group is mostly 45 years of age +.  We enjoy walking, but don't want to carry.


mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2007, 10:43:05 PM »
Brent,I think we have put more thought in this tonight than the club did when 10 dollar charge put in.If it makes a difference in club finances we are in trouble.I bet most taking the carts have no idea of the fee.It just gets thrown on bill.If you think about it a club would never make economic sense .I dont play more than 2 or 3 rounds there a month anyway.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2007, 10:53:38 PM »
I can't believe that in this day and time there s still a negative stigma attached to trolleys. With all the Americans that have traveled to the UK & Ireland to play golf one would think that most of them would "get it."

Chris - Why not do what they do at The Old Course in St Andrews... no trolleys are allowed out before noon. If it can work for a major championship venue surely it can work at your club.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Brock Peyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2007, 10:56:01 PM »
Push carts?  I thought they were pull carts?  Are they engineered differently?  Are some course designed more for pull carts and some for push carts?



....sorry, I am tired but can't get to sleep.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2007, 11:01:44 PM »
Chris,

When I lived in Atlanta, I was a member at Lanier Golf Club.  I played in a Saturday morning group that we all liked to walk.  We worked out a deal with the owner to pay for a 9 hole cart when we walked on Saturday morning during peak seasons because he was loosing revenue, but kept the dues really low - I think $215 a month with no minimums so we understood.

Now I am a member where the dues are more, but I can walk whenever and bring my own pull cart.

Like it was said before, you will get charged one way or the other.  But I did appreciate back then being able to be a member at a private club for a low fee.

I know Lanier did not make any money, thus why he sold the club to a developer.

Paul
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 11:03:14 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2007, 11:03:12 PM »
Why charge a trail fee....the dues from increased logevity will make up for the lost revenue.  The walkers are going to be healthier and live longer! 8)

Larry_Keltto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2007, 11:51:41 PM »
Why charge a trail fee....the dues from increased logevity will make up for the lost revenue.  The walkers are going to be healthier and live longer! 8)

You beat me to it. I thought I was going to have to make this argument.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2007, 03:51:53 AM »
Bill,

I almost said "Golfers in the USA..." but on second thought I realized that was probably hopelessly optimistic.

Brent as you saw the 3 wheeled push trolley hasn’t caught on over here.  I have one of the few Sun Mountain’s that I’ve seen and it does generate quite a bit of interest but it’s in the cellar as insurance for when my back plays up.

IN the good old UK (or at least the South East where I play most of my golf) the ‘in’ thing to have are powered versions of these, and there are a lot of local manufacturer’s.  It used to be for the 60+ generation but now you see a lot of the hot young players with them, as “it keeps you fresh right to the end of the round”.  

I’ll probably succumb one day but…
-   people with them seem to play quite slow
-   there’s a lot of setting up, recharging, buying new batteries

As long as I can walk I will
Let's make GCA grate again!

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2007, 04:25:09 AM »

I’ll probably succumb one day but…
-   people with them seem to play quite slow
-   there’s a lot of setting up, recharging, buying new batteries

As long as I can walk I will

Tony

the battery powered buggies are speed regulators, especially as the battery ages and the number of golf balls being carried in the bag increases.  They are not things for quick walkers.  They just don't have a fast speed.  Well, at least one in four is going to be slow, and that becomes the speed of the group.

An interesting development at one course in Adelaide.  We have always been allowed to take buggies (push/pull carts) across greens.  This club has started to say that in some conditions, you cannot take the heavier battery powered buggies across the greens (presumably because of the heavier weight).  Early days on this one.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2007, 04:48:45 AM »

An interesting development at one course in Adelaide.  We have always been allowed to take buggies (push/pull carts) across greens.  

I've always thought that was a fantastic thing, which completely overcomes another of my principle arguments agianst trolleys. The extra distance/time taken to circumnavigate green areas.

Progress?
Let's make GCA grate again!

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2007, 06:49:57 AM »
Tony

this happened a week ago, prior to the recent rain.  I have never seen it before, it was sugested because of the drought, and it may have been relaxed (back to no restriction) already.  However, it only applied to the battery buggies.

James
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2007, 08:51:51 AM »
Both Cruden Bay and Crail rent power-trolleys.  Not sure of the make - Powakaddy, I think. Cost IIRC, was 15pounds for the day, which was reasonable, for UK pricing.

I found them ideal, since at that time, I had to use a pull/pushcart because of back problems.  They weren't remote controlled so they didn't end up in the North Sea, and from what I experienced were ideal for those who want to walk and play 36 a day.

I now own a remote control trolley, and I really like it - send it ahead to my ball, around the green to the next tee etc and it cetainly doesn't slow down my play any at all.

I'm thinking that clubs could embrace the Cruden Bay/Crail model, since they could charge less than a cart but more than Chris' $10 fee.  Of course your purchase(lease)/maintenance costs are higher but you'd account for that in the rental fee.  I'd much rather see a course offer this option, cut down on carts, and encourage membership/public to walk.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2007, 09:50:48 AM »
Both Cruden Bay and Crail rent power-trolleys.  Not sure of the make - Powakaddy, I think. Cost IIRC, was 15pounds for the day, which was reasonable, for UK pricing.

I found them ideal, since at that time, I had to use a pull/pushcart because of back problems.  

Last summer, I advance booked electric trollies at Cruden Bay, Royal Dornoch, Brora and Boat of Garten They were about 10 pounds each place.

In addition I had pull trollies at Nairn Dunbar, Nairn GC, Lundin and both New and Jubilee at St. Andrews. One of our two rounds at the Old was in the evening with a local and I got a trolley for that, as well. They were usually 3 pounds IIRC.

As for the U.S., my home club has a fleet of Bag Boy rental three wheelers, and charges $2 per round.

I have also rented both three wheelers and Riksha two-wheel pushcarts in Arizona and never paid more than $5 for one .

Given the difference in overhead between a pushcart and a riding cart--in the form of initial cost, maintenance, cart storage, fuel/electricity, cart-staff wages, insurance, and even the cost of cart paths and turf repair--I can't see how someone can justify charging anything close to the same price for them.

A pushcart costs a little over $100, and has minimal ongoing cost.

If you subtract the cost of owning, operating, storing, maintaining, and managing a riding cart fleet from the gross reciepts, how much is left per player per round? It might be 10 bucks, but I'd be surprised.

Heck, at my club, there are still people who think the F&B operation makes money because all they charge against the gross F&B reciepts is labor and materials--completely ignoring the long-term and recurring costs of the facilities used by F&B.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2007, 11:12:16 AM »
I have a Powa Caddy. I pay for storage and battery charging. If I had a Sun Mountain and left it at the club I would again pay for storage. If I wanted to use a push cart taken from my trunk I would do so. I believe I am an owner/shareholder of my club and nothing can convince me that the club, or any employee, should make money out of my choice.

This is not about looking like a Muni or whatever the objection may be, but about a member of a private club having a say in doing what he wants to do without looking to raise revenues. If you are short of funds increase the dues. We have a very active Walkers Group, none of them seem elible for welfare and most own their own Sun Mountains.

As for speed of play, I think those GCA'ers who have played with me when using a push-cart, would agree that I am not a laggard. When 'I miss 'em, I miss 'em quick.'


Bob

Bob


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2007, 11:42:15 AM »

Heck, at my club, there are still people who think the F&B operation makes money because all they charge against the gross F&B reciepts is labor and materials--completely ignoring the long-term and recurring costs of the facilities used by F&B.


That's an entirely different topic you've introduced, Ken, but you are exactly right.  I really think that country club accounting was designed by the Club Managers Association to delude board members into thinking they are actually making money on their banquet facilities and staff!  ;)

John Kavanaugh

Re:Push carts
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2007, 11:45:52 AM »
Bob,

Can you bring your own beer or sandwiches onto your course?

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2007, 12:09:43 PM »
John - Where do you draw the line (and give me a good rationale?)

Does your club require you to rent golf clubs each round?  Why not?

Are you allowed to bring golf balls and tee, or do you have to purchase them in the golf shop prior to each round?


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2007, 12:10:45 PM »
John,

Yes.

Bob

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2007, 12:26:39 PM »
John - Where do you draw the line (and give me a good rationale?)

Does your club require you to rent golf clubs each round?  Why not?

Are you allowed to bring golf balls and tee, or do you have to purchase them in the golf shop prior to each round?



I don't think we should stop there.  You should have to arrive naked and purchase your clothes in the pro shop each time you play.  (Of course, this would count against your minimums...)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Push carts
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2007, 12:34:44 PM »
At our muni we have all types of push carts...old ones, new ones, "souped up" ones...all kinds. Two things, these people are walking, and they are playing golf. There is nothing wrong with that! That is all that matters.

No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Brent Hutto

Re:Push carts
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2007, 12:36:31 PM »
You should have to arrive naked and purchase your clothes in the pro shop each time you play.  (Of course, this would count against your minimums...)

I think you meant to say "...would not count against your minimums..." or at least that's how the dining rules at my club seem to work.

Anything I might want to eat doesn't seem to count, somehow I spend seventy or eighty bucks a month there (food, not beer or liquor) and still end up owing a couple dollars on my $35 minimum. Sundays don't count against the minimum, the Coke with my meal doesn't count, anything carryout doesn't count and of course quite understandably tips and taxes don't count.

They ought to just add the $35 onto the dues and be done with it but that would make the dining services look less profitable so it'll never happen.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 12:37:22 PM by Brent Hutto »

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