[mike_beene]

Good news.There is a small core group of walkers at my club.We have not been able to sustain any kind of caddy program.Not sure why.We finally ordered 10 push carts over a lot of objection.Well ,now we have 20 a few weeks later.It seems like half the club is walking.It will go down some in the summer heat.Each cart is 10 dollars to rent so the club is losing no cart revenue.People who said they would never take one have changed their mind.I said I would quit carrying in a few years,but I am hooked also.

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

I am adding pull carts in a few weeks (also over some objections).  What are the rates?  Do you have 9 and 18 hole rates and do the rates change depending on time of day?

[David_Tepper]

Mike -

That is indeed good news. Thanks for sharing. I hope the acceptance of push carts/trolleys continues to grow at your club.

It would be nice if more clubs got the message!

DT

[mike_beene]

Chris,it is ten dollars per 18 holes.I think five dollars for nine but not sure.Doesn't matter time of day.Part of our compromise was no outside carts.I suppose the price might go down,because we have already recouped the investment(I think)Once I learned to take brake off it got easier.

[Bill_McBride]

When you say "no carts," do you mean a member can't bring his own Sun Mountain speed cart?  That's bull....the loss of revenue is negligible, using your own push cart is the same as walking and carrying your own bag as far as I'm concerned.

My club in Portland provides free push or pull carts, each with a sand container.  My club here in Pensacola, probably 30-40 members have their own push carts.  Lots of other members walk and carry.

[Chris Cupit]

Bill,

I wouldn't consider allowing it unless the cart was rented from me.  The revenue is real dollars especially if I allow a player to use a cart on a weekend morning.  

I will say my business model is different than many--very low "madatory fees" such as dues but then you pay for everything on top.  Some clubs prefer to raise the dues and include lots of "freebies".  One way or another the services get paid for--some memberships like my method as they don't want to subsidize the very avid user while other memberships would rather just pay more and not feel "nickeled and dimed" to death.  Both approaches work you just have to know what kind of membership you are.

Also, I think places that allow people to use their own carts realize that at the least, the carts should all look the same or it can look real tacky.  I don't want 25 different styles of carts on the course as I think it will look like a muni.  Actually, I purchased the Sun Mountain carts--they are nice and the yellow matches my club colors

[Kalen Braley]

So Chris,

Are you trying to say that something like this would be right out then?  That is all class right there....

[Chris Cupit]

That is sweet!!!

What's sad is that I'd have some member that would think it was just great for the course

Maybe I can cancel the Sun Mountain order?  Nothing like a manly poodle-cart.  I guess if you sit in the back seat, you can tell if it's a boy or girl???

[Jimmy Chandler]

Also, I think places that allow people to use their own carts realize that at the least, the carts should all look the same or it can look real tacky.  I don't want 25 different styles of carts on the course as I think it will look like a muni.  Actually, I purchased the Sun Mountain carts--they are nice and the yellow matches my club colors

Oh, the horror! The horror of looking like a muni!

Sometimes I don't know how I survive by playing munis; I guess I don't realize how miserable my life must be.

It's great that you are encouraging walking at your club, but do you seriously think that allowing members to bring their own pull or push carts will detract in any way from the experience?  And why force someone to pay for a push cart but allow others to carry their own bags without a fee?  Isn't that discrimination against people who want to walk but are unable to carry clubs due to back problems?  Oh, I forgot -- you want to be able to keep away the riff raff to prevent the course from looking like a muni!

[Brent Hutto]

I'd say something like half the rounds at our club are walkers and something more than half of the walkers use push carts. No offense intended but I'm with McBride on this one...there's no way I'd pay ten bucks more to put my bag on a cart than to put it on my shoulder and I'm sure every member of our club would feel the same way.

So do I understand correctly that there's no charge for playing and walking with a carry bag but a ten dollar charge for playing and walking with a trolley? That's seriously out of whack and I don't see the policy lasting very long. If you need to get money from walkers then eventually you'll need to just charge a per-round fee to them.

I love my push cart but it ain't worth ten bucks a round unless I have a backache or something. Then again I play a hundred or so rounds a year so that would really add up.

BTW, our club does generate a good bit of revenue by storing push carts along with clubs. I think it's like $75/year to store your clubs and another $75-ish if you also want to store your push cart.

[Jimmy Chandler]

there's no way I'd pay ten bucks more to put my bag on a cart than to put it on my shoulder and I'm sure every member of our club would feel the same way....I love my push cart but it ain't worth ten bucks a round unless I have a backache or something.

You answered your own statement -- I know that I'm not alone in being someone who prefers walking but cannot carry his clubs due to back problems.  So I would be willing (and have been) to pay to rent a pull or push cart.  But I would not be willing to join a club then not be able to bring my own push cart.

[edited to insert the word not between I'm and alone]

BTW, our club does generate a good bit of revenue by storing push carts along with clubs. I think it's like $75/year to store your clubs and another $75-ish if you also want to store your push cart.

If I were a member of a club, I'd like this solution.  Provides revenue to the club while providing a service.

[michael j fay]

Push carts catch on quickly but be ready and able to store the carts for members. Wampanoag started with push carts about 4 years ago. They now house around 120 of them.

Many of the owners do not mind others using them but tend to get upset if they find theirs missing when they want it.

I think a $ 5.00 trail fee is a good compromise (9 or 18).

[James Bennett]

Kalen

looks like a good 'cart-girl' beverage truck.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I wouldn't consider allowing it unless the cart was rented from me.  The revenue is real dollars especially if I allow a player to use a cart on a weekend morning.  

I will say my business model is different than many--very low "madatory fees" such as dues but then you pay for everything on top.  Some clubs prefer to raise the dues and include lots of "freebies".  One way or another the services get paid for--some memberships like my method as they don't want to subsidize the very avid user while other memberships would rather just pay more and not feel "nickeled and dimed" to death.  Both approaches work you just have to know what kind of membership you are.

Also, I think places that allow people to use their own carts realize that at the least, the carts should all look the same or it can look real tacky.  I don't want 25 different styles of carts on the course as I think it will look like a muni.  Actually, I purchased the Sun Mountain carts--they are nice and the yellow matches my club colors

Ironically, I own two yellow Sun Mtn speed carts - one in Pensacola and one in Portland!

But my back feels so good these days I've been packing my GCA.com Kluger bag!  

[Chris Cupit]

Also, I think places that allow people to use their own carts realize that at the least, the carts should all look the same or it can look real tacky.  I don't want 25 different styles of carts on the course as I think it will look like a muni.  Actually, I purchased the Sun Mountain carts--they are nice and the yellow matches my club colors

Oh, the horror! The horror of looking like a muni!

Sometimes I don't know how I survive by playing munis; I guess I don't realize how miserable my life must be.

It's great that you are encouraging walking at your club, but do you seriously think that allowing members to bring their own pull or push carts will detract in any way from the experience?  And why force someone to pay for a push cart but allow others to carry their own bags without a fee?  Isn't that discrimination against people who want to walk but are unable to carry clubs due to back problems?  Oh, I forgot -- you want to be able to keep away the riff raff to prevent the course from looking like a muni!

Jimmy,

My family and I have owned and operated a very affordable private club for 34 years.  I have a father and four uncles as golf pros who grew up caddieing and one is in the Texas Golf Hall of Fame.  I feel quite confident I've been a responsible steward and promoter of the game.  

Bottom line is that golf is too expensive and takes too long to play right now.  Also, for golf to succeed it must remain economically viable.  All of you who are offended at paying for services, let me ask you--have you noticed the trend in course closings?  Do you realize that only at the high end are courses "making it".  Do any of you have the first idea the margins that clubs operate on today??  Golf is a voluntary recreation--just how much are you "owed" because you are a golfer???  

BUT, given my price point and market it is important that I not give the impression that we are not a private club.  In a way, the ultra-exclusive and expensive clubs don't have to worry about that--it's obvious they are private.  My case is different.

My uncle operates a public course and YES, the riff-raff is more of a problem there.  From dress-code, to pace of play and care for the course, public players do not do as good a job of taking care of the course as members do in taking care of "their" course.

It's comments like these that make an owner/operator want to just say--"fine, keep carrying your damned bags at no charge, why did I even bother to offer another option"!!!  

NO ONE is forced to join my club or any other private club.  AND, everyone knows the rules going in.  This is simply an attempt on my part to offer another CHOICE.  I have added options for my members.  If they don't like it, they can CHOOSE something else.  

[Bill_McBride]

Chris,

Maybe there's a case for analyzing how many members want to use push carts, are actually renting the push carts, how many are carrying, etc, and tweaking your fees accordingly.

I think those who are debating this with you are just expressing a point of view which may not agree with yours but might be viewed as a focus group.  Maybe there is some underlying resentment at your club - which I want to play soon by the way! - from some of the members.  Just speculating...

Talk about "the horror" - a focus group!  

[John Kavanaugh]

Chris,

I support your view 100%.  There is nothing worse than seeing a guy pulling his own push cart out of a trunk and them wheeling through the parking lot.  I think push carts are great if they all look the same and are maintained the same by the club.  This business that 55 yr olds can carry as easy as push is bull...buy em and charge for em...What a great deal for your members.

I would also go so far to say that the additional weight of a push cart in a trunk hurts the enviornment and provides an additional safety hazard during the course of a wreck.  I would hate to see insurance rates rise as both patrons and employees have additional injuries getting the damn things out of trunks.

[Chris Cupit]

 Bill,

I'd love to have you come play.  

I'm not into focus groups or committees but I hear you.  I only had one or two people ever mention the idea and I have never understood why so many privates never had them.  I mentioned my unique situation but it does help that many high end clubs (Druid Hills, AAC, Settindown) have the carts.

I was probably swayed by all the time I spend on this site to give it a shot.  Again, I hope it is viewed as simply another option, another choice the membership didn't have before instead of being looked at as a negative because we have to pay for the carts and continue to make money--which, BTW,  is how my membership got a $3.6 M renovation with NO ASSESSMENT

[Michael Whitaker]

It is a shame that "push" carts have gotten a bad reputation in the US. I'm sure it goes to the private club members sloughing it off with, "if you can't afford to ride you shouldn't be playing golf."

Now that it is fashionable by the well-to-do to be in better shape, walking and trolleys are becoming vogue.

One of the local courses in our area has added a fleet of three-wheeled trolleys for rent at $5 per round. They've been a big hit and are frequently used. Sometimes there are so many trolleys on the course you can squint a little and imagine you are at The Old Course or Hoylake.  

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I'd love to have you come play.  

I'm not into focus groups or committees but I hear you.  I only had one or two people ever mention the idea and I have never understood why so many privates never had them.  I mentioned my unique situation but it does help that many high end clubs (Druid Hills, AAC, Settindown) have the carts.

I was probably swayed by all the time I spend on this site to give it a shot.  Again, I hope it is viewed as simply another option, another choice the membership didn't have before instead of being looked at as a negative because we have to pay for the carts and continue to make money--which, BTW,  is how my membership got a $3.6 M renovation with NO ASSESSMENT

Your last point definitely got my attention - our new golf course, definitely a remodel/rebuilt vs restoration/renovation, cost about $3.5 million, and an $8,000 assessment helped pay for it.  

So there are lots of models.  It sounds like yours is working.  You know what storage and maintenance of that fleet of push carts costs you and it's factored into the cost.  The only thing I find difficult to reconcile is the added cost over carrying my bag, but sounds like your members are okay with it.  Your absorbing the cost of storage and maintenance and depreciation probably makes sense to them.

On to the next OT topic!  

[John Kavanaugh]

It is a shame that "push" carts have gotten a bad reputation in the US. I'm sure it goes to the private club members sloughing it off with, "if you can't afford to ride you shouldn't be playing golf."

That is not it at all.  Now if you can't afford a caddie and you are too tired to carry you take a cart.  Plus sometimes you just don't feel like dealing with a caddie as a person so you take a cart.  Or you want to take a ton to drink so you take a cart.  Or the three other guys you are playing with are taking a cart so you do too.  Or you want to play 18 holes in under three hours which is impossible with a caddie on a 7000 yd course.  Of course I'm going with the assumption that if you can't afford a cart you can't afford the club.

[John Kavanaugh]

I will go so far to say that at the two clubs where I take caddies that if they had push carts I would never take a caddie again unless it was to do a guest a favor.  I don't see how a caddie program can compete against push carts.  In an attempt to not be selfish I support the rule that does not allow push carts.

[Greg Holland]

A private club in my area recently sent out a survey to its members on this very issue.  They have a proposal to pay a small fleet of "high end pull carts" to rent out for a nominal fee.  They say the 2 sides of the argument are younger, health-conscious members want to walk, but the downside is that the "use of pull carts would cheapen the image of the club."  I don't understand the latter.  That said, my club does not allow them either, though a large % of our members walk (and we do have caddies available).  

[Chris Cupit]

Not the course I own/operate but where I play has caddies and they are required even if one decided to take a cart.  I understand that to have a caddie program requiring caddies when available is a must and I support that policy 100%.  

Some members don't like it (and yes, rounds can get expensive) but I go back to the point that you knew what the rules were when you joined, and if you can't afford it or it bothers you enough to make an issue of it, then that club is not the right "fit" for you.

[Brent Hutto]

I suppose if it helps somone's self image to look down their nose at push carts, it's no concern of mine. At least not as long as there's a decent course I can play which isn't run by irredemable snobs.

It will always be a mystery to me how someone can look at man riding a golf cart down the fairway and another man walking with his clubs on a wheeled trolley and take offense at the latter and not the former. Yet power carts are an integral part of the game and push/pull carts "cheapen" it in the minds of many.

The point will all be moot in about 40 years anyway. Golfers who are in their teens and twenties now will look back on us dinosaurs walking the course in much the same way I look back at someone playing in a coat and tie. They won't be able to imagine why it ever seemed like a good idea not to ride in a cart.

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