[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

"Is it possible that the reason so many classic courses had more bunkering was because irrigation wasn't yet a widespread art form, blanketing the golf course, wall to wall with H2O at the push of a button ?"

What's the question? Are you suggesting that many classic courses used to have more bunkering than the same courses do now?  Or that many classic courses had more bunkering than many modern courses?

In answer, sure it's possible.  Is there any evidence one way or the other to support such a conclusion?


"Could that reduction be correlated to the introduction of irrigation systems and the advent of meaningful rough ?"

Do the irrigation systems at the classic courses you mention water the rough?  In my area, rough isn't generally in the watering patterns.  When there is a drought the rough dries up and bakes out.  However our droughts usually only last a few weeks and are late in the summer after the rough is generally well grown in.  If the rough is reduced in effectiveness the balls will generally run through it into natural areas that are thick and deep regardless of the drought.

"I think a case can be made that irrigated rough replaced the need for extensive bunkering."

Have you made that case?  How much of the rough is irrigated on the courses you're talking about?

"Your argument is flawed because you haven't differentiated between a prolonged serious drought and a water shortage.
This issue wasn't contexted in a temporary environment, rather, in an ongoing or perpetual environment."

If you're talking about a post-apocolyptic world with perpetual drought I think you'd need to consider a lot more than bunkers to replace drought ravaged rough.  Is the drought severe enough that trees die?  That desertification takes place? The whole viability of golf courses would be in question.  If you think of current drought areas such as AZ and Baja California, then some thoughts come to mind - desert (or hardpan) in place of rough for instance.  Or alternate sources of water - waste water for instance.  Or desalinization if close to the sea.  

Seems to me to be a little too simplistic to equate irrigation to growth of rough to reduction of bunkering to drought to watering restrictions to reduction of rough to increased need of bunkering.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

It doesn't matter how much water a club has at its disposal, when severe drought restrictions are invoked, NO WATER can be applied beyond the limits of the mandate, internally or externally.   Everything is metered.  You own ponds, lakes, streams, etc., etc..
 [/color]

Where are you talking about, Patrick?  

Let's start with New Jersey.

Are the restrictions applied at the municipal, county, or state level?  

The restrictions are applied at the user level

Who polices the restrictions?  

A number of agencies.


Are there really meters, that are monitored, on every pumping station on every course ?

Pretty much so.

In my area, watering restrictions are applied at the municipal level.  

Where is your area ?

I believe they only apply to water drawn from the municipal supply.  

You're stating that wells on the property are exempt from water restrictions in your area.  And that drawing from retention sources on your property are also exempt.
I find that hard to believe in the U.S.

I don't believe they apply to golf courses.

On what basis do you state that as a fact ?
Are you familiar with the stages of water restrictions in your area ?

Have you read Cary's thread on water restrictions in Florida ?
Florida has been under water restricions on golf courses for over a month.

Also understand that there are stages of restrictions, and not one monolithic restriction.

Golf courses can be amongst the first to have restrictions imposed.

Perhaps your situation is not universal.

Having a reasonable amount of experience with the situation in NJ and FL, I feel comfortable with my statements.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

"Is it possible that the reason so many classic courses had more bunkering was because irrigation wasn't yet a widespread art form, blanketing the golf course, wall to wall with H2O at the push of a button ?"

What's the question ?


The question is:

Is there a relationship between available water and bunkers ?[/color]
 
Are you suggesting that many classic courses used to have more bunkering than the same courses do now?  Or that many classic courses had more bunkering than many modern courses ?


Both could be considered[/color]

In answer, sure it's possible.  

Is there any evidence one way or the other to support such a conclusion ?

Sure, just count the number of bunkers on classic courses when they were built and count the number of bunkers on them today.  If there's a negative product, you've got your answer.[/color]


"Could that reduction be correlated to the introduction of irrigation systems and the advent of meaningful rough ?"

Do the irrigation systems at the classic courses you mention water the rough?  

YES[/color]

In my area, rough isn't generally in the watering patterns.  


Where is your area ?
And, what classic courses are you referencing ?[/color]

When there is a drought the rough dries up and bakes out.  

However our droughts usually only last a few weeks and are late in the summer after the rough is generally well grown in.  


Florida has had a drought for six months or more.
That's not a temporary situation, it's long lasting.[/color]

If the rough is reduced in effectiveness the balls will generally run through it into natural areas that are thick and deep regardless of the drought.

What kind of natural areas remain thick and deep in a prolonged drought ?

Which classic courses are you referencing ?
[/color]

"I think a case can be made that irrigated rough replaced the need for extensive bunkering."

Have you made that case?  
How much of the rough is irrigated on the courses you're talking about ?

Most of it.[/color]

"Your argument is flawed because you haven't differentiated between a prolonged serious drought and a water shortage.
This issue wasn't contexted in a temporary environment, rather, in an ongoing or perpetual environment."

If you're talking about a post-apocolyptic world with perpetual drought I think you'd need to consider a lot more than bunkers to replace drought ravaged rough.  

Noone is talking in the absurd term you referenced.

Just look at Florida where a drought has been existant for six to 12 months.

Cary indicated that when he played Willoghby recently, the grass on the tees was dead or almost dead.  

The drought in Florida is prolonged, and not a seasonal temporary drought.  It's a serious drought that is impacting golf courses dramatically.  And, there's no predicted end in sight, although, south Florida tends to get rainy from June to October.[/color]

Is the drought severe enough that trees die?  
Yes.
That was begining to happen in April.[/color]

That desertification takes place ?

That's another extremist term.
Don't you read the papers or know what's going on in Florida ?[/color]

The whole viability of golf courses would be in question.

That's correct in extreme circumstances.
I thought that's what Cary Lichtenstein was alluding to, how the grass on the tees is dead or almost dead.
Usually, greens and tees are granted some water rationing, long after fairways have been prohibited from getting water.[/color]

If you think of current drought areas such as AZ and Baja California, then some thoughts come to mind - desert (or hardpan) in place of rough for instance.  

In an extreme drought, it would all be "through the green"[/color]

Or alternate sources of water - waste water for instance.  

The restrictions apply to effluent water as well as unprocessed water.

In addition, the conversion proccess from natural to effluent isn't as easy as you think, and, it's costly in many ways.[/color]

Or desalinization if close to the sea.  

Can you name five (5) golf courses that have their own desalinization plants to supply water to their golf course ?

I've never heard of it, but, perhaps, in your area, you're well ahead of the rest of the country in that pursuit.[/color]

Seems to me to be a little too simplistic to equate irrigation to growth of rough to reduction of bunkering to drought to watering restrictions to reduction of rough to increased need of bunkering.  

Then your position is that irrigation has nothing to do with the growth of rough.  Nothing to do with its height, lushness, thickness, etc., etc.. and nothing to do with its use in determining the playability of the golf course.
Nothing to do with integrating that feature with the golfer as he plays the golf course.

That's novel.

I wonder if the USGA is aware of that as they prepare courses to host the U.S. Open ?

The link between irrigation and rough is undeniable.

The questions remain.

Has that link impacted the need/use of bunkers ?

And, if a prolonged drought were to occur, would the lack of water create an architectural void whereupon the natural filler would be bunkers ?

Sometimes questions or answers don't have to be complicated, they can be simple.[/color]

[Bryan Izatt]

It doesn't matter how much water a club has at its disposal, when severe drought restrictions are invoked, NO WATER can be applied beyond the limits of the mandate, internally or externally.   Everything is metered.  You own ponds, lakes, streams, etc., etc..
 [/color]

Where are you talking about, Patrick?  

Let's start with New Jersey.

Are the restrictions applied at the municipal, county, or state level?  

The restrictions are applied at the user level

Now, you knew I meant who imposes the restrictions, didn't you?

Who polices the restrictions?  

A number of agencies.


Are there really meters, that are monitored, on every pumping station on every course ?

Pretty much so.

In my area, watering restrictions are applied at the municipal level.  

Where is your area ?

My area is southern Ontario - north of Buffalo and east of Detroit to help you place it.

I believe they only apply to water drawn from the municipal supply.  

You're stating that wells on the property are exempt from water restrictions in your area.  And that drawing from retention sources on your property are also exempt.
I find that hard to believe in the U.S.

You're right it's not the U.S.  It is Canada.  A lot of courses here draw from surface sources or retention ponds.  I'm not aware of any restrictions on retention ponds.  Toronto Ladies, which is a few blocks from my house just spent a fair amount putting in a retention pond to reduce the amount they draw from the stream running through their property.  Restrictions on use of stream or lake water is likely a coming issue here.  It has little to do with prolonged droughts though.

I don't believe they apply to golf courses.

On what basis do you state that as a fact ?
Are you familiar with the stages of water restrictions in your area ?

[color]Certainly as it applies to lawn watering etc.  Alternate days by address, night time, etc.  Mostly this seems to have to do with not stressing the municipal water supply than being drought related.  Golf courses, of course, don't use the municipal supply.[/color]

Have you read Cary's thread on water restrictions in Florida ?
Florida has been under water restricions on golf courses for over a month.

Yes, I read it.  I notice he didn't answer your last question about permitting.  I wonder how prevalent the conditions are that he described on the course he played.  I was in FL in December and January and the courses looked pretty much as they have for the past ten years.  

Interestingly, FL's droughts are my areas normal rainfall, which in turn is way more than normally arid areas like AZ.  FL's drought is something like 30" of rain a year.

My background reading came up with this definition of drought

" Drought is a normal, recurrent feature of climate, although many erroneously consider it a rare and random event. It occurs in virtually all climatic zones, but its characteristics vary significantly from one region to another. Drought is a temporary aberration; it differs from aridity, which is restricted to low rainfall regions and is a permanent feature of climate."

Perhaps the problem in FL is at least partly that there are too many people drawing too much water for the land to support.  Maybe another part is that the flood control channeling for hurricanes runs the water off to the oceans rather than allowing the acquifers to replenish.

Another part of my reading is the following drought map:



It doesn't seem that NJ is in a drought condition.  Thankfully for FL the forecast is for some improvement.

Also understand that there are stages of restrictions, and not one monolithic restriction.

Golf courses can be amongst the first to have restrictions imposed.

Perhaps your situation is not universal.

Having a reasonable amount of experience with the situation in NJ and FL, I feel comfortable with my statements.

I never doubted you were comfortable with your statements  

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()