[Mark Bourgeois]

Off memory without Googling, I think Beck had 230-235 in, but to the thread question.

I think the most-significant thing architecturally is what Zach said in Butler Cabin:

"I didn't go for a single par five in two all week."

The Masters is won and lost on the par fives.  The quote above speaks to how things are going to be going forward. We can expect to be treated to a steady diet of exciting layups and pitch outs.

Great that some found "enjoyment" watching (a distinct lack of love for fellow man on Easter?), but it was a melancholy Sunday in this corner, as far as the tournament went.

Mark

PS That victory speech to me showed the way forward for golf: NASCAR.  He missed a golden opportunity at the end of his thanks to his sponsors to say something like, "I really had the See-More putter working today..."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Brad, just caught your post. 236 it is!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Does it vindicate one side or the other in the ongoing argument about whether the "new" ANGC is the equal, the inferior or the superior of its predecessor?

I don't think it says anything.

The conditions under which the tournament was conducted were very unique.

I think the conditions of play influenced the scoring far more than any architectural changes to the golf course.

P.S.  Sometimes, it's what's in the players head, and not the
       distance that determines the player's decision.

[PThomas]

Beck made the right decision for himself at the time. He had 236 to get it across, slightly downhill lie, very light breeze at him. Too many of these judgments are made on the basis of whether the fellow making the decision won or lost. If the criterion is what he was thinking about and how he understood his situation at the time and what was best for his own comfort level and risk/reward ratio, I think Beck make the right call at the time. So does he, by the way.

thank you Brad

[Rick Shefchik]

"I didn't go for a single par five in two all week."

The Masters is won and lost on the par fives.  The quote above speaks to how things are going to be going forward. We can expect to be treated to a steady diet of exciting layups and pitch outs.

I really disagree. There were several eagles on the back nine Sunday, including Tigers' on 13. I can't see him laying up unless he drives it into the trees (which, admittedly, he does too often lately), nor can I see Mickelson, Sabbatini, Singh, Appleby, Harrington or most of the other tops players laying up under remotely favorable conditions. Maybe there was a bit more risk in the risk-reward equation this week, but that just made the rewards all the more exciting.

[Andy Troeger]

As the token clergyman on this site I should probably respond.  Having been with people who have been through everything from the joy of birth to the death of a child, people of faith find strength in times of sorrow and increased joy when there is reason to rejoice.

When Ben Crenshaw won with a "fifteenth" club in his bag there was universal understanding.  Yet when a young man thanks everyone from his first grade teacher to God, he gets jumped.  He did not say God was rooting for him only that his faith helped him down the stretch.

I probably would have said my thanks differently, but the fact that this young man was willing to share his joy with those who helped him with his game and his life is a credit to his humility.  He may not be the "worthy' champion some of you want but he seems like the kind of person I would like to get to know.

Happy Easter

Now let's talk golf.

Tommy
Happy Easter.
Well said.
Mike

Agreed. Well said. If Zach Johnson wins more majors then he will in retrospect also become a more "worthy" champion now. If not, I certainly am not one to rob the man of his day in the sun. He earned it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rick,

They all lost, didn't they?

Mark

PS Speaking of losers, what about Goosen pulling the "double layup" on 13?

[Rick Shefchik]

Mark,

They're not the first players to lose the Masters after going for 13 or 15 in two, and they won't be the last. I can't see Johnson's successful strategy changing the fundamental urge to take advantage of those holes when the opportunity presents itself.

Goosen's iron off the 13th tee was inexplicable -- and if he ever tries that again, I'll be shocked.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

PS Speaking of losers, what about Goosen pulling the "double layup" on 13?

Mark,

I've thought about that all day.

It's not really a double lay up.
Once he decided to iron it off the tee, with the wind in his face on the approach, I don't think that laying up was an option on his second shot.

What I don't understand is the following.

I can see an amateur or a fellow not at the top of his game or a fellow out of contention making that decision, but, no matter how many reasons I could come up with, I couldn't see the wisdom in his decision.

My default thought is as follows:
In his head and in his gut, he was very leary, quite uncomfortable with the drive on # 13.

But, then I thought, he's not just a PGA Tour Pro, he's one of the best.  And, today, Sunday, he's playing at a very high level, in contention to win The Masters, and, Tiger is playing behind him.

When he made that decision, he took eagle out of the equation.
He took two putt birdie out of the equation, AND, he must have known where the hole was cut and how difficult it would be to get it BELOW the hole for a good birdie putt.

I'm not sure that he knows the reason/s why he did that, or if he agrees with his reasoning in retrospect.

Then again, a drive hit so far left on # 15 it was almost unbelievable, transported to # 13, might validate his decision.

But, if you can't hit a 3-wood into the fairway on # 13, are you playing well enough to say that you possess the game to win The Masters on Sunday ?

[Matt_Sullivan]

Pat, I think he Goosen thought 3 over or thereabouts would win. He screwed up the hole one previous Sunday and didn't want to do it again.

Not sure he will make the same decision again and I bet he is kicking himself tonight. Like it or not, we all have more respect for others (and for ourselves) when we fail through daring and over-reaching, rather than being too timid.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Patrick,

I agree. It's a hard one to explain.  It's somehow very depressing to me.  Maybe it's somehow emblematic of the tournament.

The announcers mentioned that he'd met with bad results on the hole before. And maybe he was thinking about Els meeting doom there before, as well.

But thinking a little more, top-echelon pro golfers seem to be very good about predicting the winning score.  Nicklaus supposedly was otherworldly, with the notable exception of when he played too conservatively in what -- the Brit Open, I think it was.

So maybe Goosen did a little ciphering and came out wrong.

Mark

PS I think your comments about the weather are spot on, but the problem was that when golfers lose control of their ball on that course things get very, very ugly.  So I don't think it's just about the weather, but how the whole setup "played into the weather's hands."

We'll see about next year...

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat, I think he Goosen thought 3 over or thereabouts would win. He screwed up the hole one previous Sunday and didn't want to do it again.

Matt,

If he was at +3 and everyone else was at +5 or +6, I might buy into that, but, that wasn't the case.

It's difficult to imagine settling for a 4.5 instead of a 3.5 in that position.

Not sure he will make the same decision again and I bet he is kicking himself tonight. Like it or not, we all have more respect for others (and for ourselves) when we fail through daring and over-reaching, rather than being too timid.

With his ability, and it's considerable, I don't think it's over-reaching.

Evidently, he felt very uncomfortable about hitting any type of wood/metal off the 13th tee.

But, you have to ask yourself, absolutely and in the context of the history of The Masters, has any winner of The Masters ever teed off on # 13 on Sunday with an iron ?   Has anyone who wasn't in the lead ever done it ?

[Matt_Sullivan]

Pat, I agree it was a poor play -- just speculating as to why he would do it and that's all I could come up with

Edit: he probably thought he was in the lead (or at least tied). Sabbatini passed him with a birdie on 13 around the time Goosen teed off. Doesn't explain it though since he knew he wasn't up by much and most of the people around him were behind him and still had the par 5s to play

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat, I agree it was a poor play -- just speculating as to why he would do it and that's all I could come up with

Matt,

Sometimes the pressure of the moment clouds our thinking.

[Sean Leary]

Goosen also hit iron off of 10 which I found a bit surprising.  He killed it though, down where the other guys were hitting their 3 woods and drivers.  Maybe he thought he get home with 2 irons?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Goosen also hit iron off of 10 which I found a bit surprising.  He killed it though, down where the other guys were hitting their 3 woods and drivers.  Maybe he thought he get home with 2 irons?

Sean,

With the huge Turbo boost on # 10 and the huge drop in elevation, hitting an iron isn't radical.

Hitting an iron off of # 13 with a wind in your face on the approach is conceding something to the field.

[David_Elvins]

Thanks, David. I'm glad we can remove the fear-and-loathing-of-foreigners from this discussion.
Again, I was just trying to defend a player who seemed to be taking unjust criticism after a very impressive win -- and the criticism seemed to be motivated by those who really wanted to bash the course.

I agree with you on that.  Zac's status shouldnt be linked to the status of the architecture or set up.  If there was a pattern of upset wins it may reflect something but taking one person's score and making a qualitive assesment on course set up based on that is ridiculous and unfair to bot hthe course and the player.


The main reason why players of his ranking haven't won before is that they don't often get to play.  Was it only Ryder Cup team membership that qualified him?

[Jim Nugent]

Here is what Goosen said about the iron he hit off 13 tee...

"Q. It looked like you picked an iron off the 13th tee box; can you just talk about that?
RETIEF GOOSEN: It's one of these hybrid utility 1-iron-type things. I hit it quite a long way. In the past I've done it, and the fairways, as firm as they now are, you can probably hit that and still get a bit of run down there. If I feed a good one of those down the left side in, I would probably hit a 3-iron in for my second. I blocked it out right, laid up, hit the third just a little bit too hard and hit a good putt. Didn't go in."

[Dan_Callahan]

The bigger question for me is why did Tiger hit driver on the 3rd and that chip-shot 3-wood off the tee on 8?

The driver on 3 left him way too close to the green to do anything other than play away from the hole.

The 3-wood on 8 left him too far back to reach in two. Then he missed the fairway with his second, leaving another tricky approach to an otherwise easy hole location.

Two really weird choices for a guy who is considered the best strategic thinker on Tour.

[Eric Morrison]

I have been in Vt for a last ditch snowboarding effort, so this is the first time on since Thurs... so I just want to thank "Him" for letting me get through three pages of this thread!
Zach played his game and putted very well Sun. and he deserves all the credit for being 2007 Masters Champ.
Laying up on the Par 5's worked for him...I'm sure Curtis Strange would agree with his strategy looking back...
Kind of disappointed that the course played differently on Sun.

[Mike Hendren]

It says the same thing as did wins by Art Wall, Tommy Aaron, George Archer, Gay Brewer, Charles Coody, Doug Ford, Herman Kaiser, Larry Mize and Claude Harmon:  NOTHING.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

As for Zach Johnson's faith, his comments would pale in comparison to what I would say in such a situation on Easter Sunday.

Over the past fifteen years I have led approximately 900 bible study and Sunday school sessions.  I would welcome a phone call at home at 615-661-5790 any evening from anyone who believes I'm wasting my time.  

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Phil Benedict]

Goosen hit some sort of hybrid on 13, intending to hit a draw and going for the green from there.  But he blocked it right and was forced to lay up.  He wasn't intending to lay up before he hit the drive.  His strategy was pretty conventional for the hole, where few hit driver.  He just didn't execute the tee shot.

[Phil McDade]

Aren't the winds down there in that part of the course some of the most unpredictable on the course? It's not like there is traditionally a "prevailing" wind on that part of the course. I still think wind, moreso than firm and fast, had a lot to do with how 13 and 15 played. Both struck me as playing more strategically than in the past, and show the genius of the original design -- very tricky short approach shots from unlevel lies in each case.

[Phil McDade]

The bigger question for me is why did Tiger hit driver on the 3rd and that chip-shot 3-wood off the tee on 8?

The driver on 3 left him way too close to the green to do anything other than play away from the hole.

The 3-wood on 8 left him too far back to reach in two. Then he missed the fairway with his second, leaving another tricky approach to an otherwise easy hole location.

Two really weird choices for a guy who is considered the best strategic thinker on Tour.

Dan:

I wondered about those two choices, too. The one on 8 really perplexed me, because guys like Sabbatini were taking a run at 8 in two successfully. The one on 3 is sort of understandable, because I think there is a place around the green where you can put a driver for the traditional Sunday pin placement on that hole that allows for a decent chance at an up-and-down. Still, I was struck by how many indifferent shots -- not putts, not wayward drives, but indifferent and loose -- shots he hit. Like the layup on 8, which was pretty poor, compared to his short-hitting brethren.

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