"Retief Goosen is steady". I disagree; he's quietly outstanding.

[JESII]

Glenn,

Goosen hit the same club on #13 as he did on #10...a strong rescue club...

[Philip Gawith]

I hate to butt into this thread late in the day, but I have to take my hat off to you Glenn - to work yourself into such a lather about Goosen's tee shot on the 13th on Sunday. What sort of terms do you resort to when the stakes are really high, when something bad happens!?

You make the man sound like he is somewhere between a coward and an axe-murderer. From where I sit, he has been playing pretty poor golf for about a year, including hitting it all over the place off the tee. The fact that he contended at the Masters and played so well on the weekend was a great achievement.

[Phil Benedict]

A pretty small minority hit driver on 13; most choose 3-wood.  So the issue is how much length did he give up with the hybrid versus his 3-wood.  Probably not much judging by how far he hit it on 10.

On Sunday at least, Goosen was hitting it really long.  He had 92 yards to the flag on 9 compared to 100 plus for Tiger.  He also outdrove Tiger on 17.  He cumulative driving stats may not show it because he doesn't hit driver very often.

[mike_malone]

  I started this thread because I thought the commentator mistook Retief's calm manner for his play. While he may be steady in his emotions he is top notch in his ability to score under difficult conditions. Tiger is much more demonstrative , so he attracts attention to himself and his game.

   Goosen impressed me at Shinnecock with one of the best scoring days I have ever seen. What he did on Sat. before the cameras were on must have been another example. The commentators said the morning conditions were worse than the afternoon.


    Why focus on one decision he made when the overall result of his Sat/Sun. play was exceptional, certainly not "steady".

[Paul Stephenson]

David,

Thanks for the heads up re 11. If he hits 3-wood, the last thing in the world we are having is this discussion. He hit it well on 10, 13 is just begging for a 3-wood. Nobody on this board is willing to admit that it doesn't make sense. I don't see how it is defendable. One of the greatest players in the world backing away from hitting 3-wood on a generous, reachable par 5? I have watched a lot of golf tournaments, a lot, and I have never seen anything close to this chicken. It just doesn't add up. I guess I should give him credit for being so stubborn. When playing a hole that has been blueprinted many times before, I just don't see how or why you would want to do something so shameful.

Was it chicken?  Or playing within one's self?  If Goosen says he thought he could get there with a 3-iron after a well struck hybrid, who are we to question him?

I guess Tiger was a huge chicken at Hoylake last year.  Hitting 2 irons off most holes all week when others hit dirver.  Did the field at the 06 Open Championship not blueprint it for Tiger?  

If you tell me Tiger was chicken at Hoylake, I'll take your point of view on Goosen as at least you're consistent.  If Tiger wasn't a chicken but Goosen is, I question the consistency in the analysis.

For the record...I think neither are chickens.  They know their games far better than we do.

[George Pazin]

regarding the iron off of 13....Retief talked about that in his press conference.....it is a hybrid/rescue club/one iron, and he said he hits it far....he said he just got the wrong line, he was going for the corner and with firm and fast he would have had 3 iron in to the green

seems to me he thought out this plan of attack, just didn't execute

Not buying that one in any way. 510? Let's pretend he hits his 1-iron hybrid or whatever 270. With my math that leaves him 240 into the 13th green. That is the worst plan I have ever heard for playing that hole. The media or people in general just make me laugh. Chip Beck is made to be a made to be a bad guy for laying up on 15 and now Goosen pulls one of the dumbest and most inexplicable decisions in the history of sports and he gets a free pass?

Isn't 510 measured up the middle? And, judging by distances I've hit my hybrid, I have no problem believing Retief can knock his 280+ around the corner under firm and fast conditions.

Retief's one of a handful of guys I root for every time out - Tiger, DLIII, Goose and Freddie. For some reason, I think he looks like a taller, fitter version of me, though my wife thinks I'm crazy (and you wouldn't believe me who she thinks I look like).

[JESII]

Tiger Woods?

[George Pazin]

Tiger Woods?

Nope, Bernhardt.

 

* Just realized you might be guessing on my wife's rose colored view of me. I can't even reveal it, it's too embarrassing, in a good way.

[JESII]

Tiger Woods?

Nope, Bernhardt.

 

Sandra?

[Glenn Spencer]

I hate to butt into this thread late in the day, but I have to take my hat off to you Glenn - to work yourself into such a lather about Goosen's tee shot on the 13th on Sunday. What sort of terms do you resort to when the stakes are really high, when something bad happens!?

You make the man sound like he is somewhere between a coward and an axe-murderer. From where I sit, he has been playing pretty poor golf for about a year, including hitting it all over the place off the tee. The fact that he contended at the Masters and played so well on the weekend was a great achievement.

Phil,

Not that I am normally playing in anything of real importance lately, but I make all sorts of mistakes. I misread putts, hit bad clubs from the fairway. Take the safe side of the green a little too much. A little bit of everything, really, but the one thing I have never done, is lay up off what is clearly a reachable par 5 when I need a birdie and also after what had to be a maddening 3-putt on a tough hole that I had earned a par on with my tee shot.

Oh, your question. On par 4's? I try and figure out the best way for to play the hole with what I have going. Sometimes it is a longer iron to the green that results. A reachable par 5? I don't care what swing I've got. I am going to try and give myself a chance to get home. Especially 510. 13 suits me off the tee, but what shot doesn't at 510 and tied for the lead with Woods on your neck?

Goosen is not an axe murderer and until 40 hours ago, I liked him too, just think he is a chicken now.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

Goosen hit the same club on #13 as he did on #10...a strong rescue club...

Yes, I noticed that on the tape last night. He sure did hit a beautiful 3-wood on 14. A hole that requires a draw off the tee.

[Glenn Spencer]

regarding the iron off of 13....Retief talked about that in his press conference.....it is a hybrid/rescue club/one iron, and he said he hits it far....he said he just got the wrong line, he was going for the corner and with firm and fast he would have had 3 iron in to the green

seems to me he thought out this plan of attack, just didn't execute

Not buying that one in any way. 510? Let's pretend he hits his 1-iron hybrid or whatever 270. With my math that leaves him 240 into the 13th green. That is the worst plan I have ever heard for playing that hole. The media or people in general just make me laugh. Chip Beck is made to be a made to be a bad guy for laying up on 15 and now Goosen pulls one of the dumbest and most inexplicable decisions in the history of sports and he gets a free pass?

Isn't 510 measured up the middle? And, judging by distances I've hit my hybrid, I have no problem believing Retief can knock his 280+ around the corner under firm and fast conditions.

Retief's one of a handful of guys I root for every time out - Tiger, DLIII, Goose and Freddie. For some reason, I think he looks like a taller, fitter version of me, though my wife thinks I'm crazy (and you wouldn't believe me who she thinks I look like).

George,

I watched the telecast again last night. He was so far back, it was criminal. I would estimate there was 80 yards between Goosen and Dredge. He was 40 yards behind the stand of trees on the right, maybe more.

[Glenn Spencer]

David,

Thanks for the heads up re 11. If he hits 3-wood, the last thing in the world we are having is this discussion. He hit it well on 10, 13 is just begging for a 3-wood. Nobody on this board is willing to admit that it doesn't make sense. I don't see how it is defendable. One of the greatest players in the world backing away from hitting 3-wood on a generous, reachable par 5? I have watched a lot of golf tournaments, a lot, and I have never seen anything close to this chicken. It just doesn't add up. I guess I should give him credit for being so stubborn. When playing a hole that has been blueprinted many times before, I just don't see how or why you would want to do something so shameful.

Was it chicken?  Or playing within one's self?  If Goosen says he thought he could get there with a 3-iron after a well struck hybrid, who are we to question him?

I guess Tiger was a huge chicken at Hoylake last year.  Hitting 2 irons off most holes all week when others hit dirver.  Did the field at the 06 Open Championship not blueprint it for Tiger?  

If you tell me Tiger was chicken at Hoylake, I'll take your point of view on Goosen as at least you're consistent.  If Tiger wasn't a chicken but Goosen is, I question the consistency in the analysis.

For the record...I think neither are chickens.  They know their games far better than we do.

Name one hole that Tiger couldn't still get to in regulation or in 2 on a par 5 at Hoylake. Goosen played his a hand a shot too early. Never been done before in a Major Championship. He could stand there all day and not give himself a good yardage to go for that green in 2. Never, ever, could he hit it far enough off the tee to make the second shot less of a risk than hitting 3-wood off the tee.

[Glenn Spencer]

Els blew his chance in 2002 with an 8 on the 13th, went in the creek twice.

Nice, Paul. Thanks. I can't find anything on that. Where was he in the tournament? Wasn't he really in chase mode at that point? I don't think it lost him the tournament. Tiger won that one pretty easily. It might have been the death knell, but it was not Ernie's to win or lose at that point. Goosen was tied for the damn lead.

Glenn,  Els was charging he 'd just got into a tie for second plac.   A 4 instead of an 8 and who knows?

Tie for 2nd. How many back of Tiger? Chances are that he got a little too aggressive and put it in the creek, while chasing the best in the game. Goosen had no reason to get overly aggressive. Just pound 3-wood at the trees and hope it turns.

[Bryan Izatt]

Glen,

Measuring the hole on Gogle Earth, it could play as a 275 yd drive down the left side leaving a 190 yd shot to the middle of the green.   The effective length on that line is 465, not 510 yards.  Depending on the wind the second would be a mid-iron for Goosen.  He said this is the way he strategized the hole.  He didn't execute the strategy.  How does that make him a chicken?

He hit a hybrid, not an iron.  Maybe you could correct you're myriad posts where you call it an iron.  Taylor Made offers two 2-iron equivalent hybrids - one at 14* and one at 16*.  He said his is a 1 iron equivalent, so could have been a little stronger loft.  Average 3W lofts are 13* to 15*.  I don't see any difference between hitting his hybrid and hitting a 3W.

We understand that in golf you are not a chicken.  But then maybe that's why you're posting on GCA and not finishing T2 at the Masters.

[David Stamm]

Els blew his chance in 2002 with an 8 on the 13th, went in the creek twice.

Nice, Paul. Thanks. I can't find anything on that. Where was he in the tournament? Wasn't he really in chase mode at that point? I don't think it lost him the tournament. Tiger won that one pretty easily. It might have been the death knell, but it was not Ernie's to win or lose at that point. Goosen was tied for the damn lead.

Glenn,  Els was charging he 'd just got into a tie for second plac.   A 4 instead of an 8 and who knows?

  Just pound 3-wood at the trees and HOPE it turns.

Hope and know it will, as you know, are 2 different things Glenn. He felt that he knew he could with the HYBRID (not iron) and didn't pull it off. We can't beat him up if he didn't execute.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glen,

Measuring the hole on Gogle Earth, it could play as a 275 yd drive down the left side leaving a 190 yd shot to the middle of the green.   The effective length on that line is 465, not 510 yards.  Depending on the wind the second would be a mid-iron for Goosen.  He said this is the way he strategized the hole.  He didn't execute the strategy.  How does that make him a chicken?

He hit a hybrid, not an iron.  Maybe you could correct you're myriad posts where you call it an iron.  Taylor Made offers two 2-iron equivalent hybrids - one at 14* and one at 16*.  He said his is a 1 iron equivalent, so could have been a little stronger loft.  Average 3W lofts are 13* to 15*.  I don't see any difference between hitting his hybrid and hitting a 3W.

We understand that in golf you are not a chicken.  But then maybe that's why you're posting on GCA and not finishing T2 at the Masters.

That is interesting, Bryan. I guess Goosen must be carrying 2 3-woods then. He sure hit a nice one off 14. You just don't get it. My golf is not in question here. The hole has been determined how to be played in the past. What I would do is irrelevant.

I see your Google Earth bit and if you don't want him called a chicken, then his decision still stands as one of the dumbest an athlete has ever made. Think about it, we have one of the best in the world that is so afraid of hitting 3-wood that he decides to take a club that he needs to hug the left side of the creek, just to get home, that or he was laying up. Either way, it is an abundantly stupid move. Don't forget, this strategy has NEVER been tried before, I think there is a reason. If that isn't playing not to lose, I don't know what is. BTW, the man said it is a 1-iron equivalent, that makes it a 1-iron, not a 3-wood.

[Glenn Spencer]

Els blew his chance in 2002 with an 8 on the 13th, went in the creek twice.

Nice, Paul. Thanks. I can't find anything on that. Where was he in the tournament? Wasn't he really in chase mode at that point? I don't think it lost him the tournament. Tiger won that one pretty easily. It might have been the death knell, but it was not Ernie's to win or lose at that point. Goosen was tied for the damn lead.

Glenn,  Els was charging he 'd just got into a tie for second plac.   A 4 instead of an 8 and who knows?

  Just pound 3-wood at the trees and HOPE it turns.

Hope and know it will, as you know, are 2 different things Glenn. He felt that he knew he could with the HYBRID (not iron) and didn't pull it off. We can't beat him up if he didn't execute.

If you are afraid of hitting it left and you decide to take a club that you need to hug the left side creek to get home instead of hitting 3-wood away from the creek, you are one of two things. A chicken that is laying up or you are mind-numbingly stupid. You guys don't like chicken. I will go with stupid then. Think about his thought process. I don't want to go left, so let me pick the club that I have to go FURTHER left with? Nice Strategy!!!

BTW, the shot has been hit before by people that are afraid of going left. They pound it at the trees and if it turns, it is perfect. If not, it rattles in the trees and they lay up. Norman 96 comes to mind among hundreds of others. Here is Norman, completely hacking and he still had the nuts to hit a wood of the tee. Tiger has been over there numerous times. Everbody has, but nobody has ever hit a 1-iron off the tee.

[Dan_Callahan]

I'd call it a questionable or debatable decision, but not one of the dumbest in sports history.

Calling a timeout in the ncaa championship game with only a few seconds left on the clock when your team is out of timeouts is dumb.

Headbutting an opponent to get kicked out of a world cup game when you are one of the greatest players in the game is dumb.

Putting down your helmet so that you can't find it when you need it during an important moment in the super bowl is dumb.

Hitting a utility instead of a 3-wood on a par 5 when trailing at the masters makes you wonder what he was thinking. But there's lots of dumber decisions than that out there.

[Matt_Ward]

Here's what many people aren't seeing -- Goose was ahead of the main contenders on the course and needed to keep pace after three-jacking the 12th.

Kostis alluded to a previous situation when Goose sniped it left on #13. Clearly he wanted to take that situation out of play. If he made birdie with the way he played the hole then end of story.

He didn't.

Therefore, the decision to lay back at the tee is certainly questionable. Goose is plenty strong and with a solid 3-metal or driver he can get there in two. Taking seven out of the equation seemed to be more important to him than the possibility in making an eagle (which Tiger did).

I like the Goose big time -- but he lost a golden opportunity with this year's event and for that reason this Goose didn't lay the golden egg but offered a scrambled one instead.

[Glenn Spencer]

I hate to butt into this thread late in the day, but I have to take my hat off to you Glenn - to work yourself into such a lather about Goosen's tee shot on the 13th on Sunday. What sort of terms do you resort to when the stakes are really high, when something bad happens!?

You make the man sound like he is somewhere between a coward and an axe-murderer. From where I sit, he has been playing pretty poor golf for about a year, including hitting it all over the place off the tee. The fact that he contended at the Masters and played so well on the weekend was a great achievement.

Phil,

Here you are playing poor golf for a year and you decide to lay up off the most reachable par 5 on the course, while tied for the lead in the Masters on Sunday. Ouch!!! No wonder Tiger dominates the tour. The Curtis Strange way of thinking is still alive, apparently. Goosen is just in the class of players that want to win. Tiger has to win, lives to win. This is part of the reason we have what we have. Iron off 13 at the Masters. Unreal.

[Glenn Spencer]

I'd call it a questionable or debatable decision, but not one of the dumbest in sports history.

Calling a timeout in the ncaa championship game with only a few seconds left on the clock when your team is out of timeouts is dumb.

Headbutting an opponent to get kicked out of a world cup game when you are one of the greatest players in the game is dumb.

Putting down your helmet so that you can't find it when you need it during an important moment in the super bowl is dumb.

Hitting a utility instead of a 3-wood on a par 5 when trailing at the masters makes you wonder what he was thinking. But there's lots of dumber decisions than that out there.

Dan,

Nice post and agreed, but those decisions are made in the heat of the moment. Goosen had between 2 and 4 minutes to make his stupid decison. You are right though, dumbest in sports history? NO. One of the dumbest in golf history? Of course.

[George Pazin]

Glenn, the only thing I don't understand about your take is why you don't believe Goosen's stated intentions. If he believes he would be better positioned to reach the green with his hybrid than his 3 wood, why do you doubt him? He indicated he hit it well right of his intended line, and as we have seen many many times at Augusta, if you don't hit the proper line, you can lose great distance (like missing the turbo boost on the left fairway of #10). This missing of the intended line accounts for the dramatic difference from Dredge at least as much as the club selection.

What makes you think you know Retief's ability to properly place a 3 wood versus a hybrid than he himself?

[Glenn Spencer]

Therefore, the decision to lay back at the tee is certainly questionable. Goose is plenty strong and with a solid 3-metal or driver he can get there in two. Taking seven out of the equation seemed to be more important to him than the possibility in making an eagle (which Tiger did).


Exactly!!! Taking 7 out of play was more important. AKA, playing not to lose!!! It will get you second place every time.

[George Pazin]

So you don't care at all about the topography? You would rather have a hook stance to a fade green than a potentially more level stance?

I'll take Goosen's understanding of his own skillset over yours any and every day of the week. The man has won TWO US Opens, one of which was arguably under the most difficult conditions of the last 10 years or so.