[Noel Freeman]

Has anyone every mused (I'm sure George Bahto knows the answer) why CB Mac never built a Biarritz at NGLA??  I never really wondered that until I played Yale's Biarritz last weekend and started to compare it to others I've seen..

[JMorgan]

Noel, Ian Andrew gave a good explanation on his blog a while back.  Rather than paraphrase, quoted below:


The original Biarritz was the famous chasm hole at the Biarritz Golf Club in France. The hole was known for its incredible carry over a stunning 50 foot deep and 100 foot wide cut in the cliffs to a peninsula below. The hole was designed by Willie Dunn and featured a tee eighty feet above the ocean playing 220 yards away to a green sitting 50 feet above the ocean hard up against the cliffs. The lighthouse in the background and sweeping ocean view made this one of the most famous holes in its day. This was also one of the holes that influenced the thinking of Charles Blair MacDonald when he went on his trip of Europe to find and document the best holes in golf in preparation for his work at The National Golf Links of America (NLGA).

At NLGA his original plan was to make the 15th hole a “Biarritz” of around 225 yards, but that got changed as the design for the NLGA evolved. He did not use the Biarritz concept at NLGA, although he went on to use the idea (or at least Raynor did on his behalf) at a number of the courses he and Raynor designed. These include; Yale, Piping Rock, Chicago and the Creek Club. There are thought to be 30 Biarritz’s in existence today.

So what is the Biarritz concept? The original hole featured a 100 yard carry over a chasm, but that is not what caught MacDonald’s eye. What caught his interest were two concepts. First, the fairway and green on the other side were flanked by two strip bunkers making accuracy paramount from the tee. This did allow players to be short as long as they were straight. Second, the green was cited on a natural plateau a few feet above the fairway that keeping all but the best shots off the green. If you can imagine this was a daunting shot from 225 yards away, so much so that the hole was shortened a series of times before its final disappearance (to become housing).

MacDonald took the concept of the natural plateau, the strip bunkers and the role of the slope in the difficulty of the hole. He brought all three together and then modified the idea into what he thought was a superior hole. MacDonald not only had the plateau “green”, he used the defense idea of the front slope in a different but equally effective way by creating a broad swale. The swale still needed to be in carried or “run through” to get to the green (I have never seen any reference to the original having the swale). Then where the Biarritz found its current form, MacDonald made the front a “plateau” like the back. The hole at Yale with its higher back plateau has more roots to the original than others, but either way they all are equally as interesting to play.

Where evolution took this one step further was the front seems to be intended to be fairway, but at some clubs (Chicago and Yale originally) the front was cut to green height creating a most fascinating version of the double plateau green. It is not known whether this was the idea of Raynor, MacDonald, Banks or a green chairman but never the less it made MacDonald’s creation even more fun to play. The result was many clubs now have greens with high plateau fronts, a massive deep swale running across the centre, and a high back plateau. That green is now commonly referred to as the Biarritz green. When MacDonald built his first one at Piping Rock it was quickly referred to as MacDonald’s folly (the hole at Piping rock had the approach and swale as fairway and the green as the back plateau). Now each and everyone of them is cherished and protected by the club.

[Jim Nugent]

If I understand what Ian wrote, the green at the Biarritz in France was not cut in the middle by a deep trench or swale.  

That would make N. Berwick seem like a more likely model for the hole, as someone pointed out recently in another thread.  Especially if McDonald knew the course and hole.  Yet Ian's blog makes it sound like CBM developed the idea for the Biarritz by himself, evolving it over time.  

I'm a little confused, obviously!    

[Bill_McBride]

Having recently played North Berwick's Gate hole #16, and played the Biarritzes at Yale, the Creek, and Mountain Lake in the past, there really isn't much similarity other than the Gate and the Biarittzes have swales.  The swale at NB is deeper and much more abrupt.  It also runs at a bit of an angle.  It may have been the inspiration but it certainly isn't similar otherwise.

What a bugger that #16 North Berwick green is, I played a bit of ping pong there last week!  

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think the 16th at North Berwick has anything to do with the Biarritz, although I'll let George B. weigh in since I just took him to see it.  I'm skeptical that Macdonald ever saw that green in its present form ... Bernard Darwin's write-up of North Berwick in Macdonald's day does not even mention that hole, and it's hard to believe he would have refrained from commenting on such a green one way or another.

I'd never heard that Macdonald intended to use the Biarritz at National -- I don't know where Ian got that -- but personally I am glad we have the 15th and 16th at National instead of another Biarritz.

[Doug Siebert]

The 16th at NB is the poster child for "quirk", IMHO.  I love that green, but honestly when I saw it the first time I was astounded by just how abrupt that separation is.  For those who haven't seen it, imagine a pushup green that's five feet high instead of the more common two feet, that's built diagonally to the approach and 3x as wide as it is deep.  After its built, some wiseass comes along with a Caterpiller and takes out an 8 foot wide swath in the middle at the surrounding ground level.

If an architect built a green like that today I'll bet 95% of golfers who saw it would absolutely hate it, and find it gimmicky.  But after you've played the first 15 holes at NB, it just seems to fit right in.  I didn't know anything about the "Biarritz" where I played it, but it stuck in mind as the most memorable green at NB....actually that hole stuck in my mind better than the The Redan, which I also hadn't ever heard of prior to my visit!

Its too bad stuff like that really isn't done anymore, imagination like that is what makes golf truly interesting.  The typical green on new courses today is so bland, being constructed to be playable at stimp 14 (whether or not it ever approaches that in practice) that you never look at the green on your approach and wonder "just how in the hell am I supposed to get my ball on that green somewhere where a two putt is a reasonable possibility?"

That green is way too "unfair" to be accepted by today's golfer, other than the self selected group who seeks out a course like North Berwick and truly appreciates it.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm still confused.  Was the famous Biarritz in France actually a Biarritz?  

[George_Bahto]

I believe that Macdonald wanted to replicate the topography he saw at the original hole and because he did not have any topo close to that at NGLA he chose not to build a Biarritz there.

I have  a lot of very early information about National and have never seen any reference of him considering a Biarritz.

I've seen and copied the earliest concept plan of the course on which CBM was developing his plan and there is not even a similar yardage - and on the 15th hole?? ......   I'd be very interested in finding out where that came from.

For a long time I've been trying to find ANY information about the original (long gone) Chasm hole green -  NOTHING!!!!

Perhaps Ian can tell us the source of This revelation.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

George Bahto & Tom Doak,

If CBM had intended a Biarritz for NGLA, I'm sure he would have expounded on why he considered and rejected that concept in his book, "Scotland's Gift".

It's interesting to note that he references his finding of good to excellent land to replicate the Redan.  The topography of the Redan hole would lend itself to a Biarritz, with the chasm like carry, yet, CBM NEVER offers that as a choice in the concept, design or construction of the 4th hole.

One could make the argument that the topography for a Biarritz exists from the tee at # 5 to a point in the fairway, but, that would produce back to back par 3's and, a sequence of par 3's that went 3, 3, 4, 3, and I doubt he would have considered that sequence.

I can see where someone might consider the land from the 15th tee to a point in the 15th fairway.  

However, CBM also indicated that he found a good leven hole, so, how would he have gone from a Biarritz at # 15, to the 17th tee ?  A par 5 with a layup drive, then over the water/swamp to the the spine and fairway bowls, eventually to the punchbowl 16th green ?  

I doubt that because to do so would create five par 5's, with a 5,4,5 finish

It is my theory that CBM really designed 4 par 3's at NGLA.
And, that's because of the dual nature of the 13th hole.
Play from tees to the left and to the right of # 12 green would duplicate the approach shots on both the 7th and 11th at TOC.

If my theory has any merit, that, and the other issues mentioned, would seem to preclude CBM from designing a fifth par 3 at NGLA, a Biarritz.

Your thoughts ?

[George_Bahto]

quote: Tom_Doak

"I don't think the 16th at North Berwick has anything to do with the Biarritz, although I'll let George B. weigh in since I just took him to see it.  I'm skeptical that Macdonald ever saw that green in its present form ... Bernard Darwin's write-up of North Berwick in Macdonald's day does not even mention that hole, and it's hard to believe he would have refrained from commenting on such a green one way or another."

thought I'd wait til the Masters threads subsided:

Although 16 NB is such an interesting green I really did not get a Biarritz "feeling" about the green complex after seeing it in person.   MHO

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()