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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dick Wilson/RTJ
« on: March 31, 2007, 08:00:46 PM »
  In the last several years worth of ranking, several courses that werefixtures on the any list have fallen off. Ironicly, many several of the courses were designed during the same time period but 2 architects that had similar thoughts of design. Courses by RTJ like Bellerive, Point O Woods, The Dunes Club, Greenville CC, Mauna Kea and courses by Dick Wilson like Pine Tree, NCR and Cog Hill actually all fell off GD's list in 2005 and didn't resurface in the 2007 rankings. Stange thing is that almost all of the courses listed have done a major renovation in the last several years. Have raters identifiled this time as an era of mundane architecture? Many of these courses have similar design intensions-long, runway tees, big bunkers, big, multi-teired greens-Are the courses done in the late 50's to late 60's just a poor time for architecture? There are only a few courses that are rated in this era and until Pete Dye comes along with The Golf Club and Harbor Town, that 10 year time frame doesn't seems to hold much water....thoughts?

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC  
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 08:01:00 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 08:07:47 PM »
Good point Tony.  I have played each of the courses you mentioned.  But, it has been at least ten years for each of them.  I am not sure about other panelists but there are so many new courses that want to be rated that I generally don't go back to courses unless they are in my own state.  All of the courses you mentioned are contenders and my guess is that some of them will resurface.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2007, 09:00:20 PM »
Are the courses done in the late 50's to late 60's just a poor time for architecture?

I can't comment on most of those specific courses, as I've never seen them, but in my part of the world--the Midwest--there were hundreds and hundreds of courses built during that time, and nearly all of them were horrible from a GCA standpoint.

I am almost 60, and it wasn't untilfairly recently that I realized how bad the courses I grew up playing in Minnesota and North Dakota were.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Andy Troeger

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 11:43:34 PM »
Tony,
You knew I would bite on this one :)

I can't speak for any of the other courses, but I think Point O'Woods has a lot to offer. I've played it pretty much every year for the last 10 and they did go through some bunker work in the last few years. I can't believe that it would have significantly hurt the courses rating in regards to any lists.

The course is RTJ and is not the typical GCA wide-fairway with many options course, but neither are a host of other courses in the top 100. There's a few world class holes IMO (#2, #9) and a lot of other strong par fours.

I hope it resurfaces.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
Anthony, it is not my favorite period but those two men designed some great courses. The big brutal types of courses are some that i hold dear to me as great tests of golf which pass the Ran test so to speak. I feel Champions and Spyglass are two more examples of this style of course.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 09:20:28 AM »
It is remarkable that during the two decades after WWII, when the US got back on its feet and when there was an explosion of new golf courses, very few of those course are well regarded now. Look at any top 100 list.

Has there ever been a two decade period where the ratio of ranked courses to total courses built was so low?

Doesn't that suggest something about the quality of the architects during that era? Or maybe about the quality of the design philosophies that predominated during that era?

Bob  
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:22:15 AM by BCrosby »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 09:36:30 AM »


Doesn't that suggest something about the quality of the architects during that era? Or maybe about the quality of the design philosophies that predominated during that era?

Bob  


Bob, after reading what you said, an analogy sprung to mind. One of reasons Top Gun school was created was because the pilots as a whole had lost much of their dog fighting techniques. Why? Modern technology. Air to air missiles had discouraged pilots from getting in their and "mix it up", and the stats proved it with kill ratio's after WWII declining.

What's the point? I think the "dogfighting" techniques eroded after WWII because of the access to these new found machines that architects suddenly found and the courses proved that. Heaving said all that, I do think Wilson and Jones put out some really good courses in the late 50's and through the 60's (of course Wilson died in the 60's).

I hope that crazy analogy made some sort of sense. ;D
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 09:36:34 AM »
Anthony:

Regarding some of your questions in the first post---particularly why Dick Wilson/RTJ courses may be falling off the magazine ranking lists--it could have something to do with a bit of a trick I think Wilson and RTJ were aware of and used to get on those magazine ranking lists in the first place.

Are you aware that back in the 1950s or 1960s some of those magazine lists weren't called the 100 Top Courses or the !00 Best Courses, they were called the 100 Toughest Courses?

And what constituted toughness or difficulty in architecture in an actual course rating sense to the tune of about 75-85%?

Raw length did.

I think Wilson and RTJ (and maybe some like Cornish) figured that out real quick that the trick was to just build the longest courses and you had a great shot, or a far better shot at getting on the magazine ranking list of the 100 Toughest Golf Courses.

The 100 Toughest Golf Courses morphed into the 100 Top Courses or the 100 Best Golf Courses but the die had been cast.

After a while the rest of architecture coming on stream began to compete length-wise with those ultra long courses of Wilson and RTJ and over time they just naturally began falling off the lists because of that competition.

At least that's one way to look at it. ;)

But I have a feeling some of the architects back then like Wilson and RTJ (and apparently Cornish) realized the easiest way to make the 100 Toughest list was to just create longer courses than anyone else.

You may be too young to remember but Cornish's International back then that was built to app 7,700 yards was really the talk of the town for a while. Using today's elite player shot values compared to elite player shot values back then that course would probably translate into something like 8,500 yards today.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:39:56 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 09:45:38 AM »
TE - good and interesting information and insights, thanks.

Bob C - something you wrote a while back has stuck with me. You paraphrased your dad saying something like "The philosophies of the 1920s were soft and lazy, and got us into a Depression and worse, but now we learned our lesson and we're not going to repeat those mistakes"...and that attitude manifested itself in gca in the kind of tough and penal courses that got built in the 1950s.

I hope this paraphrase of your paraphrase is not too far off -- but I think you're on to something there.

Peter

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 09:54:56 AM »
TEP -

Somebody needs to write a little history of course rankings. It would be fascinating. Begin with Crane and bring it forward.

At the end of the history, I think the conclusion would be that the criteria used in rankings and the rankings themselves are purely derivative of ideas that were "in" at the time. That is, what rankings show best are the preconceptions of the raters at any given point in time.

To us ratings skeptics, that will hardly be a surprise.

I too remember the first 100's lists in Golf and GD in the late 70's. I  remember Butler as being in the top five purely because Butler was long and hard.

David -

Your Top Gun analogy is not crazy. There was a mindset in the '50's that, on reflection, was nutty.

Purely as a sociological phenomenon, I am always amazed at how thoroughly the mindset of an era pervades that era. I mean, there must have been architects hidden under rocks circa 1955 who thought RTJ's courses were not very good, but they couldn't get a job or get the freedom to go against the grain of the era's mindset.

That is no less true of our era. I'm just not sure what our mindset is. It's hard to see clearly your era's mindset when you are in the era. We don't have the benefit of hindsight.

My son will straighten us out in 20 years or so. ;D      

Bob
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:57:33 AM by BCrosby »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2007, 10:15:14 AM »
Peter -

I don't know how old your are, but there are a number of us here who will remember growing up in the 50's.

Everyone will have their own take on that era. For me, the dutiful son of a hard-nosed Republican father, that era was marked by...

....You know what Peter, that's too hard a question. Too big a question. I've bitten off more than I can chew. I'll punt for the moment. Let's get back to it over a beer. Atlanta, Toronto or someplace in between.

Bob

 

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2007, 10:18:06 AM »
"At the end of the history, I think the conclusion would be that the criteria used in rankings and the rankings themselves are purely derivative of ideas that were "in" at the time. That is, what rankings show best are the preconceptions of the raters at any given point in time."

Bob:

I don't think there's any question of it. And I think an accurate analysis of this subject and question (what was "in" at any particular time in a ranking sense) would show that in one way or another the concept of "difficutly" (whether it relates to pure length or the idea of "penalty") will be pretty near the foundation of it all.

I also think most of us on here would be very surprised, perhaps even shocked, to learn just how far back into the 20th century this architectural and golf idea of difficulty=quality goes.

I think we can see that around the turn of the century and for the next 25-30 years, architecture and golfers, particularly in America, were struggling to define and debating just what golf should be. We should also note that a lot of them back then used words like "modern" and "scientific" to describe what they were trying to accomplish in golf architecture.

The idea of the degree of difficulty appears to have been right there near the foundation of it all every step of the way---difficulty translated into shots and difficulty that translated into fairly defined and perhaps even semi one-dimensional physical "shot testing" execution that became known as "skill".

In that entire 20th century process and evolution things such as thought, highly individual strategies, width, luck, randomness fought to maintain the degree of their existence every step of the way.

On the other hand, we should also note that the concepts of thought, highly individual strategies, width, luck, randomness were never killed, not completely, and they are all back now in discussion and debate, and, in far more cases than only a decade or so ago, they are getting back on the ground and back into play.

Since one could probably make a pretty good case that golf course architecture is really only about a century and a half old, at least as an art form/science/competition subject of discussion and application it looks like we may be seeing the first attempt at a real renaissance with those things listed above---eg what goes around comes back around at some point.

But there probably opposing them in some fundamental way will always be the idea of "difficutly" and what it really means, combined with the ultimate allure of golf with most all golfers---eg how far they can hit a ball with any golf club, and to some lesser degree, how accurately.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 10:37:14 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2007, 10:26:30 AM »
I think Tom Paul is right on with the length issue......there were plenty of good courses during this time  but people could not play the length....same will happen with some of these long ones beng built today.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2007, 10:46:29 AM »
 8)

I think the ones that need to experience dog fights are the rating folks..  no love lost here, on this unreconcilable pre-occupation with rating who's #1.. an american trait of winning or losing on any scale, across any spectrum?? In war yes, life or death battles yes.. but not in "architecture"..  an art of qualitative impact on the mind.. quantitative impact on the body..

Ohio State notwithstanding.. Go Bucks!

how many "championship courses" are there?? or are needed outside of the northeast??

perhaps the legacy of Wilson and RTJ is truly represented by the work of associates who left the fold, like Joe Lee?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2007, 12:17:53 PM »
In the case of Bellerive in St. Louis has to be the timing of their renovation.

As I believe it was said somewhere in another thread, something like 40 raters have to visit the course before it can be re-evaluated. Bellerive wasn't open to guest play until Thanksgiving weekend I believe, giving it no time to be seen.

I will say this, the work done there was really pretty neat, and some of the holes were dramatically changed for the better by R. Jones. (IE #2)

I wouldn't be surprised, with the coupling of the renovations and the BMW PGA stop in 2008, Bellerive will make a big jump up.

Pat
H.P.S.

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2007, 12:27:02 PM »
"In the case of Bellerive in St. Louis has to be the timing of their renovation.
As I believe it was said somewhere in another thread, something like 40 raters have to visit the course before it can be re-evaluated."

Pat:

Forty raters have to visit and play a golf course to reevaluate it after a renovation/restoration? Or, forty raters have to play a course to have it evaluated and rated???

To put it mildly, that is patently ridiculous, in my opinion. If owned a golf course I would not even allow more than five raters at most.  

What if one of these magazines got 8,000 raters instead of 800? Would they then insist that 400 raters have to play a course to have it evaluated for rating purposes?

This whole magazine rating thing the way they go about it today is just nuts.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 12:28:02 PM by TEPaul »

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ New
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2007, 01:04:03 PM »
TEPaul,

I'm not exactly sure of the dynamics of it to be honest, the raters number was just from rough memory.

The point I was making was that in the case of Bellerive the system of raters have not had a chance to see the course again.


Pat
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 01:46:57 PM by Pat Craig »
H.P.S.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2007, 06:35:10 PM »


Doesn't that suggest something about the quality of the architects during that era? Or maybe about the quality of the design philosophies that predominated during that era?

Bob  


Bob, after reading what you said, an analogy sprung to mind. One of reasons Top Gun school was created was because the pilots as a whole had lost much of their dog fighting techniques. Why? Modern technology. Air to air missiles had discouraged pilots from getting in their and "mix it up", and the stats proved it with kill ratio's after WWII declining.

David,

It was just the opposite.
The MIG 15 and its successor the MIG 17 had superior flight performance qualities necessary for successfully participating in dogfights.  They were more technologically advanced than the early American fighters in the Korean war.

It wasn't until the F-86 Sabre Jet and advanced production models of that aircraft were produced that the dogfights became equalized.  

As to missles, many of them malfunctioned, were inaccurate and not highly effective in air to air combat.  The Sidewinder, a heat seeking missle, was one of the more effective Air to Air weapons.


What's the point? I think the "dogfighting" techniques eroded after WWII because of the access to these new found machines that architects suddenly found and the courses proved that.

That's not true, the US Air Force was still using P-51's in the early 50's, the same plane, but a later production model, used at the end of WWII


Heaving said all that, I do think Wilson and Jones put out some really good courses in the late 50's and through the 60's (of course Wilson died in the 60's).

I hope that crazy analogy made some sort of sense. ;D


I wonder how much of the post WWII architecture was the product of the earth moving techniques learned and employed by the Seabees during WWII ?

Drag pans, Bulldozers and scrapers were around long before WWII, it's the techniques and applications that intrique me.

The Seabees were innovative and successful in turning hostile land forms into successful military platforms for a variety of uses.

I wonder if the post WWII architects drew their design and construction ideas and any of their labor force from the Seabees ?

They were moving dirt long before jets were ruling the skies.

TEPaul

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2007, 09:58:20 PM »
Patrick:

Interesting theory about the Seabees.

For starters, why don't you explain to these young guys on here the history of the Seabees, who they are and what they've done, do and can do?

Peter Pallotta

Re:Dick Wilson/RTJ
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2007, 10:37:56 PM »
Just for interest's sake, apropos of nothing:

The 1951 U.S. Open at Okland Hills. Par 70; 6927 yards. Recently trapped and tightened by the noted golf architect Robert Trent Jones. "I predict no man will break par for the 72 holes", said Jones, after planting the last of sixty-six new hazards and then standing back to admire his nightmarish handiwork.

The Par 3s: 200, 216, 169, 194
The Par 4s: 440, 448, 437, 350, 381, 458, 448, 407, 447, 392, 405, 459
The Par 5s: 510, 566

Tough track in 1951.  Not really suitable for all level of golfers.
 
Peter