[Lloyd_Cole]

I have never found that a hole location is adequate when the putt is struck and IF it does not go in the hole will come back to the player. That to me is unfair.

If a hole location is close to a ridge on the putting surface, then the player must negotiate his way as to avoid going down the ridge and on to a lower surface of the green.

What else is there?

There isn't much else.

The example of the ball returning is a good one, as you have done your job and positioned yourself below the hole. In our little 9 holer Beaver Brook's club championship a couple of years ago I had this happen to me. I was on the fringe below the hole, maybe 15 feet away. My stats would say I took 0 putts. Actually I had 2 - the second from the original spot, if I hadn't holed it I could have been there all day.

The correct placement of a hole near to but not actually on a ridge can create an exciting challenge.The wrong placement creates an exercise in futility.

I should add that I don't like to use the word 'fair' at all in golf. I'd say that pin placements can be good or great even. They can also be bad and they can be downright stupid.

[Ron Kern]

I played one of my courses this weekend where the pins had been placed in locations that made for goofy golf.

Makes ya just want to design flat greens sometimes, doesn't it...

[Lloyd_Cole]

I played one of my courses this weekend where the pins had been placed in locations that made for goofy golf.

Makes ya just want to design flat greens sometimes, doesn't it...

This really isn't rocket science. If clubs/courses cannot be bothered to either assign someone with a knowledge of the game and how the contours of the green affect it, or educate someone, then they absolutely deserve to fail in their venture.

If the architect really feels like he's making a gamble in designing greens that are not flat, it really is a sad state of affairs.

[Ron Kern]

I played one of my courses this weekend where the pins had been placed in locations that made for goofy golf.

Makes ya just want to design flat greens sometimes, doesn't it...

This really isn't rocket science. If clubs/courses cannot be bothered to either assign someone with a knowledge of the game and how the contours of the green affect it, or educate someone, then they absolutely deserve to fail in their venture.

If the architect really feels like he's making a gamble in designing greens that are not flat, it really is a sad state of affairs.

Truly.

I play many early mornings on one of my courses and on multiple occasions have reported to the staff that there was an impossible location and it needed to be moved.  This course has undulating greens and the speeds are kept so that they are playable within the design intent.  When hole locations are such that they are impossible, it really makes the course's staff look like they don't know what they are doing with what they have - probably because they don't.

Sad state of affairs indeed.

[Craig Sweet]

There is nothing more boring, than predictible pin locations...in other words.."it's Tuesday so the pin is back left"....

99% of the folks posting here have never cut a pin....they have not had to stand on a green in early August and seek a hole location on a green that has had 40,000 rounds played on it already...and sort through the plugs from old holes and ball marks to find a location that might be somewhat smooth for todays pin....making the hole location interesting, bringing contours and subtle breaks into play isn't easy....

[Craig Sweet]

Ron, I disagree....

if the course has undulating greens and the speeds are kept so that they are playable within the "design intent", then anywhere on the green is pinable....with very, very few exceptions....if the "design intent" has left few "flat spots" on your greens for suitable pins, who's fault is that?  

Maybe the green speeds are too fast for the design intent?

[Mike_Young]

It seems to me that when you go out to cut a hole in the morning you have a green with boundries, and what ever "green" is within those boundries was designed by an architect and ANYWHERE within the designed "green" is fair game for a pin....

Do you blame the greenskeeper when your ball rolls down the fairway and comes to rest on a mound or in a depression that was designed by the architect?

Craig,
Above I said I disagree with your post but could you explain it further.  After reading your last post it seems we do agree.  Are you saying an entire green is pinalbe or are you saying the "intended sections of green" are the boudaries?  I guess one way I could describe my view is to say that portions of a green surface are as much a part of strategy for a pinnable area of green  as a bunker would be....so therefore even though they are part of the green , they are not part of the intended pinnable areas.  
Mike

[Craig Sweet]

Mike...random thoughts

I think anything you call the "green" is fair game for a pin....why be so ridgid and say the designer didn't intend for a pin to ever be put in location X?  He designed the green, he put those contours in, he wanted grass to grow there, why not use them even if it was not how he intended?

However, when I hear someone complain about unfair pins the truth is usually the green speeds are too fast for the greens and to fast for the majority of the membership

Here's a pin location example...a tiered green....a pin located 3 feet beyond the crest of the tier is difficult, and a ball not struck hard enough to crest the tier might roll back to the players feet...a pin located at the bottom of the tier where the green begins to flatten, will have every unholed putt from above roll right on past it and might give a player a longer putt coming back...BOTH are ok locations in my opinion....

A pin stuck on the slope of the tier is wrong (obviously it all depends on the slope of the tier)...

A pin located on a contour or undulation where you might have to putt uphill to the cup from more than one direction is fair game....Perhaps Tom Doak would say, "no, no...I intended that contour to funnel the ball down and over to a hole location over there".  

[Mike_Young]

Ok..I just happen to think there are parts of the green that were not meant for cupping.....I think the easiest example for me would be a punchbowl.....I do a gree on speed being a factor in eliminating may pinnable areas....
Mike

[Joe Hancock]

After all the discussion, I'm still not ready to use "The difficulty of pin placement" as one of the reasons a club should pay me 6 figures to supervise the operation of the golf course. (I wish...)

If a superintendent doesn't recognize the relationship between green speeds and "available" pin placement, then the course set-up is likely to suck.....


Joe

[Lloyd_Cole]

Craig

I cannot tell whether we disagree or are posting at cross purposes.
I'd doubt there are many here who will be arguing for boring placements. The differennce, however between an excellent placement and a stupid one can be as little as 3 feet, I'd think.
Take a thereortical simple 2 tier green. Flat, slope, flat. On the slope, the ball placed on the green by hand will roll. It is therefore impossible to lag putt, from any direction to the slope. How close to the slope is acceptable? Too far away is, as you say, probably boring. Too close is impossible. Somehwere  between the two is acceptable and from day to day more or less challenge can be offered. This basic logic can be applied to all varieties of greens, however subtle and I'm sure that if the greens themselves aren't rotten there will be plenty of variety to be found.

[Craig Sweet]

Lloyd, that is the very example I used in my earlier post...the tiered green....obviously you do not set the cup on the slope...though some slopes can be very pinable and fun....so...the question is how close to the crest of the slope or the bottom of the slope do you put a cup before someone says its unfair?

[JESII]

Craig,


per your example...it's not unfair if someone leaves their putt three feet short coming up the hill, and it's not unfair when they hit their approach to the wrong level of the green...

[Lloyd_Cole]

Lloyd, that is the very example I used in my earlier post...the tiered green....obviously you do not set the cup on the slope...though some slopes can be very pinable and fun....so...the question is how close to the crest of the slope or the bottom of the slope do you put a cup before someone says its unfair?

Again, I'll try to shy away from the word 'unfair'.. I prefer 'bad'.
I think if one cannot lag to within 3 feet from below the hole it's bad. I think if it's not possible to hold the green and be below the hole it's bad. I've seen many examples of both around here in W Mass, almost all on greens that are now kept much faster than was believed possible when they were designed.

[Craig Sweet]

Another example...the front of out #1 green (a par 5 hole) has a great deal of slope to it...we pin the front of our green....if you're above the hole you will not stop a putt if it misses the hole....in August, you could putt right off the front of the green if putting down that slope....the BEST shot when the pin is on the front of this green is below the hole...even if you're not on the green and chipping with your 3rd or 4th shot....

The player that misses this green long when the pin is in the front was not the victim of an unfair pin...

[Lloyd_Cole]

Another example...the front of out #1 green (a par 5 hole) has a great deal of slope to it...we pin the front of our green....if you're above the hole you will not stop a putt if it misses the hole....in August, you could putt right off the front of the green if putting down that slope....the BEST shot when the pin is on the front of this green is below the hole...even if you're not on the green and chipping with your 3rd or 4th shot....

The player that misses this green long when the pin is in the front was not the victim of an unfair pin...

Craig

We have exactly the same thing on our (my old 'our' anyway) 1st. The leave is short right of the green. Call the pin on the slope position A. However there is a position (B) to be had just at the top of the slope where the grade softens, which is much better, the putt from the wrong leave is incredibly difficult but not impossible, and the chip from below the hole will not necessarily roll back to your feet if it doesn't go in, as it would when pin is at A.
I cannot see any argument for using A over B, B is only 4 or 5 feet further form the edge of the green.
I would argue that in 75% of the examples of sporty pins that I might dislike, there is a great pin to be had very nearby.

[Kyle Harris]

Very simply, when I do setup:

I look at the total amount of area from which an uphill putt may be had to the hole. If the majority of this area is away from hazards, near the front of the green and somewhat flat. I consider the pin easy.

Reduce the size of the area, put hazards in the proximity and increase the slope and the hole location becomes more and more difficult.

Some greens are inherently difficult and may anchor a tough stretch of holes in terms of set up for that day.

Other greens may offer a breather.

It's an art, but not one to be overthought - a bad hole location one day precludes a better one the next.

[Ron Kern]

I remember why I typically don't post here except on music threads...

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