[TEPaul]

I can't speak for others but I love fast greens and the reason I do is I think fast greens require so much more imagination to play.

However, I've gone on record on here many, many times that I just don't think greens over 11 on the stimpmeter are necessary anywhere on any golf course even if the greens are almost flat.

Go over a real 11 on the stimpmeter and all kinds of problems arise remarkably quickly in both playability and agronomy.

Over 11 on greens that have good slope and contour the problem of balls building up too much speed and the problem of "ball creep" ratchet up extraordinarily exponentially.

[Paul_Turner]

Fast greens look better,  they have a sheen.  In the winter, inland British courses can get pretty depressing when the greens are so shaggy and slow.  Stick to the links.

[Stan Burton]

what are fast greens?  the tour plays greens that are 11'6" unless it is a major and those courses can't maintain that speed 24/7 or they would risk serious damage.  sure there are new grasses, but at what point does cost meet the demands of "all" players and not just the very best players at a club.  is it worth the expense and a large one at that, to gain 6" to a foot under the best possible situations?? what about the next "new" grass?  do we dig up the current re-seeded greens and chase that 6" to a foot again?  

any supt. worth having can keep his/her greens is excellent playing condition, silky smooth and around 10' 24/7.  weather and climate in most areas change frequently causing the greens to change, isn't that good for golf?  or, should we play the exact same course every day?

sorry, just tired of the fast,faster,fastest debate that rages at all clubs.

[Tim Gavrich]

When I hear a golf course I am about to play has fast greens (anything 10' or faster), I become more excited about playing that course.  Perhaps I am stuck in the misguided masses in this regard, but it's just the way it is.

I happen to think that fast greens expose green contours more effectively than do slow greens.  Of course, if greens are maintained at too quick a pace, good hole locations are lost.  However, by the same token, if a course is designed with fast greens in mind but still contains mild to severe contours, the "marginal" hole locations that might be necessitated become more intriguing anyway.

The golf course that illustrates my point best (as far as I know) is Pinehurst No. 2.  If the greens are maintained at a speed of 8, then pins can be placed nearer the dropoff areas, but these areas can still carry the ball off the green.  Now, if those same greens are maintained at a speed of 12, the pinnable area will be smaller and the "points of no return" will be further from the edge of the green.  But, hole locations that would be boring on the 8-speed greens become interesting on the 12-speed greens.  That is acceptable to me because I simply enjoy putting more on 12-speed greens than 8-speed greens, as do the vast, vast majority of golfers.  Does that make us plebeian?  Maybe so, but then again, as the majority, it is in most clubs' interests to bend to our will if possible.

A final word: I (and many of my ilk) love fast greens because it is a good way to glimpse the game that the pros play.  Yes, it may be markedly more dificult, but in such a case, we are prepared to stomach the frustration when we consider the increased difficulty.

[rjsimper]

I played at Prestwick today and the greens were probably 8 on the Stimpmeter and had been lightly topdressed a day or two ago.  Nevertheless, they were as true as any greens I've seen for a while, the ball did not bounce or wobble once all day on putts long or short.

Tom,

How did they achieve this "slow but true" meld?  I am notoriously bad at determining what stimp readings translate to in real life, but when I consider the closest thing I know, Pacific and Bandon Dunes, those greens would have to be considered anything but true while still rolling, I'd guess, somewhere in the neighborhood of 8.

Slow never bothered me at Bandon, but the bumpiness and the sideways cuts and dives the ball takes on a stock 10 footer drive me to madness.

I think slow could be more accepted here if there wasn't the a direct relationship between the slowing of the greens and the increase in luck required to make a 6 footer.

[Stan Burton]

the real humor in this topic is that most good players could not guess within 6" of what there green speed actually is at a given point.  i actually tried this with a good group of players that ranged in handicap from 4 to +2.  and on their home course on an average day in the summer, they weren't even close.  they all guessed much slower than the actual green speed.  this is the problem, we are all chasing a phantom.

oakmont has fast greens almost everyday and they probably vary by 2' from peak to valley during the golf season.

[Guy Phelan]

Fast - Every subtlety is observed in a green that has speed…that makes it more interesting to read putts and attempt to decipher...

[Joe Hancock]

You guys have it all wrong. The reason golfers like the greens fast is because fast greens really limit the number of "fair" pin positions....therefore making the approach shot a lot more predictable due the same, tired pin locations.

 

Joe

[Kevin Pallier]

Two common boasts out of a typical club member are how tough their course is and how fast their greens are.

No use boasting about speed unless the roll is true.

[David Ober]

What would it take to create and/or maintain slow but smooth greens with more contours?  Is poa a slower or stickier grass?

C.B. I do believe Poa is somewhat tackier in it's playability on a day to day basis. The stroke requires attacking the putt versus the feathery wave needed on super fast bent greens.

What ever happened to asking the golfer to adapt his stroke day to day? Having the breens pushed to their maximum speed everyday, removes a variable the folfer should be aware of.

In Southern California, poa greens are strange birds: During the hot summer months, it's tough to cut them too low because you risk stressing them. Most in the Inland Empire area are kept in the 8 - 10 range. But in the winter and spring, poa greens can be very, very fast. Upwards of 12 at times on certain courses.

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