Why some architects make great restorations/renovations

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

and some do not. I keep thinking of Birmingham CC. It was a great Ross course. RTJ Sr. comes in and completely RTJ ed up the course. A few years later Pete Dye comes in and make a few changes but leaves his prints everywhere while doing so. Now the course is a decent course with no personality. It lost itself to the work of great men who it seems did not respect D Ross great work before them. When the course have great bones to begin with, why do some archtects feel the need to leave their stamp or prints and show such minimal respect for the work of others. I think the best work is when you cannot tell any changes were made at all.

[JESII]

and some do not...

I think the best work is when you cannot tell any changes were made at all.

tough to charge a whole lot if they can't figure out what you did, don't you think?

[Mike_Young]

John,
I tyhink often the perception is very different than the reality of such renovation/redos....Birmingham is a good example....
I would wager the membership hired RTJ because he was the man at the time and they wanted an RTJ course because at that time there was no "Dead Guy Fad" and most did not even know who Ross was.....then when Dye was going strong...same thing.....NOW I am not saying anyone destroyed BCC...they just did what they were commissioned to do.....The "Dead Guy" fad of the last few years will go the same way.....IMHO....
I'll bet you saw many more Leisure suits in the clubs at the time RTJ did the redo than you do now.....BUT even now we have a crossover with these microfiber golf shirts with the zippers and little sleeves on Dead Guy redos....wow.....

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
You're absolutely right.
The club wanted the latest fad, probably because another club they played on vacation or cross town had been built by the same "hot" architect. This is repeated over and over at clubs accross the country.

The same has been true of every era.
In 1926 Augusta CC hired Donald Ross to redo Augusta CC,(It was built in 1899)
a multitude of hot architects, green's chairmen, and superintendants had their hand in redesigning it over the next 5 decades.
Jack Nicklaus dealt it the final death blow in the 80's and then Brian Silva was hired to "restore it" (restore what???
and "interpretively" of course) most recently in the past decade.

Palmetto, built by Herbert Leeds(and others)beginning in 1892 , was redesigned by MacKenzie in 1930 when he did Augusta.
Again, after several architects, greens chairmen, and supers,
it slowly changed. Then, the hot hand at the time Rees Jones(who until this year had his own parking spot) came in and dealt Palmetto its' own death blow.
Now Gil Hanse (after having Tom Doak do advisory work for several years) is redoing the course.

Sleepy Hollow has a similar history.

By the way, I love the most recent work on both Augusta CC where I grew up,and Palmetto where I now am a member,and I look forward to the completion of the work at Sleepy,where I used to work.

Every club thinks what they're doing at the time with the hot guy is the right thing and that it will stand the test of time.
Unfortunately, as a fan of classic architecture, this fad will pass as well and we will be seeing someone else do redesign work on these great courses.
It's just hard for those participating in a fad as it's happening to recognise it as a fad.

Perhaps Mike and I are wrong(which would be just fine with me), but history stands behind us.

[Will E]

Okay Jeff and Mike,
what's going to be the next fad?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger,

I'm with Mike and Jeff on this.

I'll add my comments below.

and some do not. I keep thinking of Birmingham CC. It was a great Ross course. RTJ Sr. comes in and completely RTJ ed up the course. A few years later Pete Dye comes in and make a few changes but leaves his prints everywhere while doing so. Now the course is a decent course with no personality. It lost itself to the work of great men who it seems did not respect D Ross great work before them. When the course have great bones to begin with, why do some archtects feel the need to leave their stamp or prints and show such minimal respect for the work of others. I think the best work is when you cannot tell any changes were made at all.

Tiger,

RTJ Sr and Pete Dye didn't just happen to make a wrong turn into the club's driveway.

They were invited in BY the club for a predetermined purpose, a mission.
Chances are that that mission was to change the flavor of the golf course such that it reflected RTJ Sr's and Pete Dye's design philosophy, their personality, such that the course would carry their architectural brand and be flown under their banner.

It's the clubs who are the ultimate curators of the golf course.
They're supposed to value and protect meritorious architecture.

If they fail in their mission, you can't blame the architect.

You might make a case that the recently recruited architect should reject the job.  But, Ross, AWT and others didn't, so why are other architects obligated to turn down work ?

It's the club that bears the responsibility.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I wonder how much ego has to do with renovating a course.  Does the architect feel he has to leave his own imprint or does he just try to renovate it in such a way that it keeps its own distinctive flavor?  
I have always felt that Arthur Hills does much better renovations than original designs.  I have met him and he is genuinely a humble person.  That seems to be borne out by those for whom he has worked.

[Mike_Young]

Okay Jeff and Mike,
what's going to be the next fad?

I think the Dead Guy thing has already started to fade.....I am sure dues paying members in many of the groups are down....
....clubs are starting to see much of the hype in it.....
What was the best thing to come of this latest fad??? Tree removal...

I think the next fad will be a refined minimalism whereby minimalism will be replaced by simplicity and functionality..much like a piece of Stickley furniture vs. a piece of Queen anne.....one looks very minimal to the untrained eye but it may be more complex than the other....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

I think the next fads will be dictated by financial pressures.

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young,

I think the next fads will be dictated by financial pressures.

Agree....

[jeffwarne]

Will,
The next fad will be.....

Just like fashion, or the stock market,
nobody knows, but almost any club of any means will have to have it.

What could start a new trend in architecture? ...And please understand I happen to love classic architecture and wanted to lay down in front of the bulldozers at all three of the above mentioned courses that were butchered by hot 80's architect. (like the song says, I loved classic when classic wasn't cool)

Perhaps Augusta National has started a new trend already and will be followed by others with narrowing corridors and reducing options.
What better place than Augusta with its public persona and exposure to turn the tide against classic design.

Perhaps we will go into a nasty recession/depression and maintenance costs will become untenable at 95% of courses.
and low cost ,low maintenance, no bunkers, gang mowers will be the only way to go....

As I said, history tells us there will be another fad.
At least as long as Clubs are run by committees.

[Jeff_Mingay]

"Dead Guy Fad"?

Have you considered the evidence suggesting that a large number of original golf course designs, by dead guys incidentally, were much more interesting before they were renovated, Mike? Hence the reason for restorative-based work.

Perhaps the next fad will be to renovate in the style of those learned gentlemen who so brilliantly reworked those great old courses by dead guys. (Let's hope not.)  

[Mike_Young]

Hey Jeff,,
As Jeff W states I too am a fan of classical golf architecture  BUT I sincerely think much of the Dead guy redo stuff is a fad that is fading.

I often wonder who a Ross or Tillinghast would want redoing their work today....would they want an architect that had done their own work and had plenty of top designs on the ground or would they want someone who had no courses on the ground but claimed to be a "Fill in the blank Dead guy" specialist.  I bet they would take the guy that had his own pallette of work....and that is why you see guys like Rees J, RTJ, Pete D doing redos.....IMHO
And then i ask myself..who would a Pete D or JN or a Rees J want doing their renovation/redo work?  I bet not one would choose to have it done by someone that had  read their books , commented about their work on a website and done a few bunkers that matched.....
Same goes for any profession out there and IMHO if that doesnt hold true...well..then it might not be a profession after all..
JMO
Mike

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike,

As you know, one of the great things about golf is the remarkable diversity of courses throughout the world. It'd be a travesty to completely redo  a number of fine courses according to design fads, and thus affect that diversity.  

This is one reason restorative-based work is justified, in my opinion: to maintain that remarkable diversity. Just as the great courses of the past should be restored/preserved, I hope Harbour Town, Muirfield Village, and some good Rees Jones course out there aren't completely redone in the future either (even if I probably wouldn't like it very much).  

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,
I think I agree with most of what you say in last post... i just don't agree with the hype of the Dead guys and the "specialist".  Most of it is BS  IMHO...
Mike

[jeffwarne]

Jeff Mingay,
Atlantic's pretty darn good.
...Oh wait, they just redid it.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Only a great artist knows best what to leave and what to improve, whether there was a golf course there to begin with or not.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike Young,

I think the next fads will be dictated by financial pressures.

Agree....

Mike, Patrick - can you expand on this a bit? What kind of 'financial pressures' are you thinking of? And how do you think those might play out?

Thanks
Peter

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike Y.,

Seems we agree on a couple points then... the other being the "specialist" B.S.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would wager the membership hired RTJ because he was the man at the time and they wanted an RTJ course because at that time there was no "Dead Guy Fad" and most did not even know who Ross was.....

Its true and we have talked about this before.  A number of clubs are trying to find out what RTJ did and then reverse it.

My take on the next fad is,

White sand in bunkers
Rough edge bunkers

[Mike_Young]

I would wager the membership hired RTJ because he was the man at the time and they wanted an RTJ course because at that time there was no "Dead Guy Fad" and most did not even know who Ross was.....

Its true and we have talked about this before.  A number of clubs are trying to find out what RTJ did and then reverse it.

My take on the next fad is,

White sand in bunkers
Rough edge bunkers

Joel,
I think white sand may be past in my area and I know the rough edged bunkers are.  These are items Pat M is speaking of IMO when he says cost will be a factor...other non specific items could be
1. course that can be maintained with less or no flymows
2. course with less watered area
3.  course with ultradwarf on push ups vs USGA spec green w/bentgrass
Mike

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Side topic, but I have an old vet that I need work on (I might even want to restore it).  Would you recommend the tried and tested corvette dealer down the street (those 2007 models are sweet) or the "specialist shop" who just works on these old "junkers"  

[JESII]

Mike,
Side topic, but I have an old vet that I need work on (I might even want to restore it).  Would you recommend the tried and tested corvette dealer down the street (those 2007 models are sweet) or the "specialist shop" who just works on these old "junkers"  

Not a side topic at all Mark, more of a direct shot...I'm proud of you.


For my "old jumker" I'd probably want the guy that knows the most about cars and has decided he would like to focus that energy on one type of car. This, as opposed to the guy that loves his Corvette and decides he'd like to start fixing only Corvette's and therefore is a Vette specialist.

After all, what happens if you get into a sticky situation where a part may not be available and the guy has to be a real expert to adjust...

[michael j fay]

The Fad

Restoration may well be a fad. Fading it is not.

Currently there is restoration work being done on Ross courses in at least 20 states and two provinces in Canada.
I know this because I am in touch with the Architects doing the work.

Among thoses being redone in North Carolina are Forsyhe, Sedgefield and Charlotte, htree of the highest profile courses in the State.

As for membership in Architectural Societies I can only speak for the Ross Society. We still gan another 50-75 members per year and our dues collection is about the same as previous years.

The restorations that are in the works come on the completion of restorations of some 125 Ross courses in the past 18 years.

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
Thanks for the advice.  Anyone you could recommend would be appreciated.  The car definitely will need some parts, a new paint job, and lots of tender loving care    And, I don't want it looking like a Mustang (even though I do like Mustangs) when they are done