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Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
High Slope?
« on: March 25, 2007, 05:58:02 PM »
Is it just me or is it strange that some developers or GCA's is plugging their new course they have a line like:

"It provides a tough test for pros, but high handicapers can shoot a good score"

The next sentance is usallly:

"Our new Par 72, 7200y, Championship layout has a world class course rating of 74.2 and slope of 142"

Surely these two statements contadict each other because:

Hard for Scatch + Easy for Boegeyer's = Low slope!!!

If I was looking for a course to play, I would not look at slope and if I did I would go for a low slope as this would generly give a funner game for mixed abilty!

What do you think?

 

Doug Ralston

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 06:34:21 PM »
Slope of 142 is pretty high. Certainly doesn't sound like an easy course for bogeyers.

Doug

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 08:06:39 PM »
Matthew,
   There are guys here who can explain all the ins and outs of slope, but my understanding is that course rating is the better indicator of course difficulty.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

TEPaul

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 09:12:38 PM »
"Hard for Scatch (high course rating) + Easy for Bogeyer's = Low slope!!!"

Matthew:

You are exactly right. It took me and GAP about five years to convince Aronimink of this reality and I'm still not sure we succeeded.  ;)

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 09:15:05 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.

We need more of them, IMHO.

K
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 09:16:03 PM by KMoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

TEPaul

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 09:30:07 PM »
Basically the essence of a high course rating and low slope is RTJ's old saw---"easy bogey, hard par".

The only trouble with golf courses like that is too often they will just be long and not that interesting---eg not much real "stroke dropping" danger on the holes. Very high "obstacle ratings" which are technically a small percentage of overall rating and slope are what make golf courses really penalizing for the high handicapper---eg "Bogey" golfer.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 09:33:01 PM by TEPaul »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 01:34:14 AM »
Well, the slope on the back tees may well be 142, but I would hope the bogey golfers aren't playing from there!

If it was 68.8/117 from the middle tees, then I would say that it does meet the advertised claims.

But yeah, I suspect that line about being hard for pros and easy for bogey golfers is probably used many many times when it is not even remotely true.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

JohnV

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 09:12:02 AM »
A course with a slope of 142 will play 26.4 strokes harder for the bogey golfer than for the scratch.

So with a course rating of 74.2, the bogey golfer will shoot 100.6.

Ask the average 18 if he enjoys shooting 100.

Jim Nugent

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2007, 01:26:11 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

Tom Huckaby

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2007, 01:46:34 PM »
I have very few hot-button issues in this forum, but this is one.  I've said for years on here that if the goal is to make courses as much fun as possible for all types of players, it's just logical you'd want high course rating, low slope.

It's a separate question as to whether or not that's a worthy goal... it seems such on the surface, but I also believe that too many designers lose both ends when trying to make a course all things to all golfers.  What's wrong with a course that's brutally tough and makes no bones about it?  Lesser players would just avoid it, or go in knowing what to expect.  On the other hand, a course that doesn't care that it can be torn up by the scratch players but still remains fun and interesting for the lesser players would surely have even greater value.

In any case, there would seem to be very few high course rating / low slope examples.  We have one near us:

Monarch Bay - Tony Lema course:

Men
Professional      71       73.9     126      7015
Tournament      71       73.5     125      6937    
Championship  71       71.8     122      6567
Member             71       69.1     118      6061

This course does seem to work for all levels.

In any case, I'd sure as heck want more high course rating / low slope courses than the reverse of that... but what has seemed to have happened is all new courses seem to be high course rating / high slope.  Oh well....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 01:48:28 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2007, 02:22:10 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

Given that high and low are relative terms, I was specifically thinking of the course I play all the time. It is reasonably challenging for good golfers, without being impossible for the rest of of the golfing world.

It is, in fact, one of the few courses I have seen where it's easy to break 90, but relatively hard to break par. No low single-digit handicappers I know think it's an easy course. But when 20 handicappers from some local courses play it, they often play better than they are accustomed.

It's course rating from the back tees (6600 yards) is 72 (par  71) and is has a slope of only 120. I play tees @ 6300 where the rating is 70.8, and the slope is only 117.

I know that might not meet your definition of high course rating, but anything that's equal to or over par fits my definition.

The opposite are courses where the course rating from the reasonable-length tees for us shorter hitters is under par, but the slope is 130+.

I enjoyed Craig Schreiner's Prairie Highlands in Overland Park,KS, which has a set of tees @ 71.6 and 126. Compare that to Prairie Dunes whites @ 71.1 and 134. I haven't played PD, but walked it four days during the Women's Open, and as much as I loved it, I realize that I'd have a lot of unfun rounds there looking for golf balls in the bushes.

Perhaps I should have qualified that statement thusly: "Personally I seem to have more fun on courses where the course rating is at least up around par, but the slope is relatively low, say under 130."

Much higher course ratings are usually length related, and I can alway move up a set of tees. But slopes up around 140 and above usually mean too many forced carries, too much long grass and lost balls, and that's not my idea of a good time.

Your mileage may vary.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

JohnV

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2007, 03:12:34 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

A good example is Talking Stick North.

73.8 125 from the tips.

But, it since slope is always relative to course rating, it is still hard for the bogey golfer.

Tom Huckaby

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2007, 03:15:32 PM »
JV:

Yes, it's still going to be hard.  73.8 doesn't lie.

But it's not as hard as it MIGHT be.  That's the point.  Sure seems to me the bogey golfer will have a lot more fun at 73.8, 125 than 73.8, 148.



Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2007, 03:45:27 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

St Andrews or Augusta maybe?

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2007, 03:57:01 PM »
A good example is Talking Stick North.

73.8 125 from the tips.

But, it since slope is always relative to course rating, it is still hard for the bogey golfer.

The other thing about a course like that is that I always have the option of moving up a a couple of tees. I assure you that if I ever get to Talking Stick, I'm not playing the tips.

As I understand it, length is a bigger driver of course rating than anything, while "obstacles" have a big effect on the bogey rating. Is that close to correct?

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2007, 04:02:18 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

St Andrews or Augusta maybe?


I've played TOC and it's got an awful lot of trouble for most bogey golfers. What's funny is that I played there with my wife and another couple and both of the women (13 and 33 handicaps) thought The Jubilee was more fun than either The New or The Old.

I have walked ANGC during practice rounds, and looked as the members tees and I think that you're right, if the greens are "normal" speed. At Masters speed, the average 15 handicapper probably couldn't break 90 if you gave him 18 GIRs in the dead center of every green.

I'd bet he'd putt off the green at least a handful of times in 18 holes.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mike_Cirba

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2007, 04:45:00 PM »
There's nothing as much fun as a course with a high course rating and a low slope.
K

Can you name some?  

Jim,

I recall that Eric Bergstol's Pine Barrens in New Jersey (which features a really fun back nine) has a rating of 74.2 and a slope of 132.   That's about right as there are really no difficult forced carries, wide fairways, not a lot of OB, water, or thick woods.

I think the last time I looked Aronimink was 75.2, 128.   There is plenty of room for the poor golfer to bat it around and get on in 3 shots, but the good player faces a really severe relentless challenge.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 04:46:42 PM by MPCirba »

Art_Schaupeter

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2007, 09:26:35 PM »
Old Hawthorne is opening in Columbia, Missouri in May.  Just found out last week that the course rating will be 74 (par 72) with a slope of 128 or 129 (can't remember which).  The owners are quite happy with this for the reasons you all have elaborated on.

Jim Nugent

Re:High Slope?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2007, 12:46:25 AM »
Haven't really seen any examples yet of high CR and low slope.  That would be something like CR = 74.2, and slope = 110.  Instead the examples are high CR and lower-than-expected slope.  But the slopes still are higher than average.  And since the CR is high to begin with, average players will have a real tough time on these courses.  (If two courses have the same slope, the one with higher CR should play tougher for average players.)

Are there really any courses with high CR and low slope?  From different tees, of course, but I thought we're talking about the same tees.    

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2007, 01:14:26 AM »
Well, they'd be pretty boring, wouldn't they?  Don't just about any obstacles either have no effect for scratch rating (forced carry pond of 80 yards off the tee) or count for more for bogey golfers than scratch?

Maybe a course that's got a bunch of 490 yard par 4s.  Those are too long to be reachable in two by scratch (250 + 220 = 470) but are easily reachable in three by a bogey golfer (200 + 170 + 120 = 490)  But the fairways better be wide enough for a bogey golfer so the rough doesn't count as an obstacle.  And the greens can't have much trouble around them either, since the bogey golfer will be required to hit it from 120 yards away.

Many courses have fairways with obstacles (bunkers, rough, water, trees, OB) on the sides that are far enough away they don't count as obstacles for scratch, but do for bogey golfers.  Those are the ones that end up with a slope of 145+.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:High Slope?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 06:34:53 AM »
Matthew,
Although I haven't played there in several years, I remember the Pine Needles course as being great fun for our mixed handicap group.

What they now have dubbed the 'Ross' tees play at 6,436 yds., par of 71, CR of 70.6 and a Slope of 126.

This has to be one of the the more well-rounded courses of note in the U.S..    
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon