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Jeff Doerr

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Favorite connecting holes
« on: March 24, 2007, 03:21:57 PM »
Not sure what kind of response I'll get on this, because it will require knowledge that some of us don't have and others may not be willing to share. My interest is keen on this due to the routing thread a while back and my recent trip to the Bandon Trio. The insights and knowledge shared would be very helpful to me.

What are some favorite holes that came to be primarily because the architect needed to get the golfer from one excellent natural site to another?

The ancillary question is what did it take to find and build this connecting gem?

"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Adam Clayman

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Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2007, 03:27:35 PM »
Jasper Park came immediately to mind.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2007, 03:56:07 PM »
Jeff:

A lot of people think they know which were the "connector holes" in a routing but sometimes they have it backwards.  And of course, the real genius of a routing is when it feels like there aren't any "connectors" at all.

Just to shock Adam, the seventh at Ballyneal started out as a connector ... but then I found a slightly different green site and it turned out to be one of the principal attractions.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2007, 04:07:22 PM »
Adam, I never been to Jasper. Which holes are you thinking of, and are they ilustrated well on the GCA profile?

Tom, I have the feeling that 7, 8, 9 at PD are connectors of a sort, but I love that set. As I recall when seeing it built (from 7 green on BD) there were a ton of trees in pots out there and now everything looks like it has always been there.
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2007, 08:41:41 PM »
Jeff:

The seventh at Pacific Dunes is definitely NOT a connector hole.  The ninth was really the only way to get to #10 tee after David had used the land he did, but I really liked the hole so I wouldn't call it a connector.  The eighth was just a mass of trees when we did the routing, so it was a connector, but it's one of my favorite holes on the course now.

The "trees in pots" you saw were probably huckleberry bushes being transplanted OFF holes 7 & 8 to the main entrance.  We hardly planted any trees at Pacific Dunes.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2007, 08:43:00 PM »
I think 11, 12 & 13 are the connecter holes at Pennard with the short par 4 12th being the linchpin between two cool par 3s.  It is interesting that this wild land was used in the routing when there is some great unused land behind the 2nd tee and along the fairway.  It would be interesting to speak with the principle archies to find out why the course was routed this way.

Sean, hopefully you'll have to wait a while to talk with James Braid about this!  ;D

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2007, 08:48:02 PM »
Jeff, As Tom mentioned, when done properly there is no feeling of connector. Only discovery.

At JP the flow of the course covers some vastly different terrains and settings. The method Thompson used to connect them felt seemless. I can't pickout all the specific holes but the most obvious has to be the 13th. A par five that concludes with a tumble towards the lake and one of the most peaceful serene spots in golf.

Tom D. I'm not that surprised about #7 considering the all world terrain on the 8th. I wonder if you wouldn't include #15 as one too, considering #16.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 08:51:04 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2007, 09:04:42 PM »
I really don't think that way, in terms of "connector holes"  Hey, I try to make all of them good, and I have only heard on gca ever say, "Well, they can't all be good!"  If you start with that attitude, they most certainly won't.

Fewer of you will have played the Quarry than Bandon Dunes, but to give a similar example, two of my favorite holes there - the short 6th and 9th - might be termed connectors, if so inclined.  After the property was "shrunk" from both sides of the road to basically one, with only two holes to the east, the holes had to tighten up.

The very first hole I had my heart set on was the 8th.  I knew it would take the entire property to make 16 holes and the range fit and laid out 1-5 along perimeters with nice effect.  In earlier routings, I had avoided both the ridge top on 6 and the narrow valley on 9 as being too difficult.  Forced to look at the property slightly differently, and having recently played Sand Hills and its ridge running second, made me consider 6 differently.  Having played in Ireland, and seeing forced carries over dunes helped both on the tee shot there, and in placing hole 9, where the approach is through what used to be a haul road to a cement plant.  Its narrow, but it seems to have worked.

Hole 7 then had to play over the old sand quarry at 90 degrees, rather than the angle I had originally planned, causing a direct forced carry, which some complain about.

I would consider neither hole a connector, even though they may have started out that way.  They definitely were worked out as a result of me wanting the 8th hole in its exact location.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2007, 02:08:51 AM »
Thanks Gents.

I do remember an earlier comment about PD #7 being a "natural." #8 had the pin on the front left bump when we played last Sunday. I had a sketchy lie and opted for the back collection bowl and a nice two putt for par.

Jeff - I checked your website for info on the Quarry and really enjoyed your series on building the course. It is on my someday list!

I'm still processing the middle section on Bandon Trails. #7 had some flooding in front of the tee that made the bunker look like some of those Florida beach bunkers. The rest of the really cool right side bunker was in pretty poor condition and the sod patches were mostly unnatural looking squares - a little like randomly tossed carpet squares. I didn't like the lake on 11. The shot values were great but the look seemed wrong. If I were on the design team I would have considered 11 as a dogleg left par 4 to the 12th green site. Then play 13 which I love. Then have an uphill par 3 along the ridge to a skyline green as you made the climb to 14 tee. On the back of the skyline green I would still hide the vista to 14 and access that through a curving wooded path. Arriving at #14 via a noisy shuttle cart was very disrupting to the flow of the round. We waved off the driver and took the forest trail for the second 18 which was much better.

I'm sure my idea will be rapidly shot down, and so I will humbly keep my day job!  ;)

#13 from the forest trail - a great connecting hole as Ran indicated in the write up that the green which looks so natural is very manufactured.




"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

TEPaul

Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2007, 09:32:47 AM »
Jeff Doer:

Yours is a most interesting question but the kind of question which may be very little known on most courses for the obvious reason the architect is not around or never recorded this kind of thing.

But I can sure as hell think of 2-5 holes that came into being sometime to quite sometime after initial routing iterations as so-called "connectors"---eg perhaps more like "final fixers" in a routing sense. And the irony is they are all on the same course and what a course it is and what holes most of them are too.

It's Pine Valley, and the otherworldly par 3 #5 was just that---a "connector" that the architect had not seen and had consequently really struggled with his initial few routing iterations because he hadn't seen it.

Colt came in perhaps six months later and envisioned the green site which Crump had either not noticed or thought impossibly long and basically that connecting hole (Crump already had #6 in place even though in his last iteration it was #8) seamlessly connected #5 to what then became #6 and basically made the rest of the nine or perhaps even most of the rest of the routing fall into place.

The other connecting hole or holes out there was #13, one of the best par 4s in the world. For first few years Crump hadn't noticed the green site of #13.

Basically that decision connected what then became #12-#15 to the already exsiting and in play #1-#11 and #16-#18!

But again, the all-time best "connector" hole that had not been initially visualized in a routing has to be PVGC's otheworldly #5.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 09:36:53 AM by TEPaul »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2007, 10:01:08 AM »
The 7th hole at Yale is a hole that Raynor used a lot of dynamite to cut out the fairway leading to a greensite on top of a hill adjacent to the 8th tee. Only recently did they put in sufficient drainage so the hole stays dry as there isn't much soil before you hit ledge (I think).  

Why is it a great connecting hole?

Because the 8th and 9th holes at Yale are absolutely beyond a doubt world class.  Building the 7th by blasting away a sideslope solved the routing of the golf course and allowed a set of out of this world holes to fit into the course.  I suppose nowadays you might just have large distances between green and tee and have a cartball course and a different 7th could have been built.  However, the 7th is a truly fine par 4 by itself with one of my very favorite greens on the course.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2007, 01:14:12 AM »
Thanks again for the posts on Pine Valley and Yale.

#5 at PV is amazing for the length of the day.



« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 01:14:29 AM by Jeff Doerr »
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2007, 06:29:08 PM »
The 14th on The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol is a connector in the truest sense. It did not exist on the original routing that actually had a short par 4 playing away from the ocean as the finishing hole. When this was eliminated in order to avoid a letdown finish after 3 great holes a new hole had to be find.

The result is not only the 14th which is a wonderful 365 yard par 4 but the par 3 13th as well which had to be changed from its orginal routing in roder to make room for another hole.

So those are two "connectors" that one would never guess the origins...

I suspect the orginal 13th would have been an excellent par 3 but doubtful it would have equalled the current 13th.

TEPaul

Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2007, 07:00:27 PM »
"#5 at PV is amazing for the length of the day."

John:

It definitely was that. So much so, in fact, that Crump who was definitely a "difficulty maniac" (on distance) didn't even see it. It had to connect very closely, though, with the next tee because almost more than any architect I've ever heard of Crump virtualy insisted on that. PVGC is about as tight green to next tee as any golf course in the world.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2007, 10:55:57 PM »
Thanks again to all!

Does someone have a routing for PV that they can post or e-mail to me?

For those who have played there is Cabo 14 short enough to flirt with going for it on your drive?

Cheers, Jeff

"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

TEPaul

Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2007, 11:34:00 PM »
"Does someone have a routing for PV that they can post or e-mail to me?"

John Doerr:

Don't even think about it. It takes a lot of time and analysis to unravel the meaning of the evolution of those early PV routing iterations.

A guy on here who some thought knew his stuff actually thought Albert Tillinghast must have been lying in what he reported in magazines about the early routing iterations of PV. And this from a guy who'd never even been there.  ;)

« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 11:35:05 PM by TEPaul »

Greg Tallman

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Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2007, 01:08:04 PM »
Thanks again to all!

Does someone have a routing for PV that they can post or e-mail to me?

For those who have played there is Cabo 14 short enough to flirt with going for it on your drive?

Cheers, Jeff



Jeff,

I suppose there are those that could hit it long enough to reach the 14th as it would probably be 330ish directly at the green. That said I doubt even the bravest would make the attempt as it would require such a precise shot... Playing our red tee event the shot is still pretty difficult from about 190 with a mid iron. Margin for error from the back tee with a less attractive angle is practically zero.

The hole was certainly not designed with driving it in mind but then I imagine there are thousands of holes that are now reachable that were never intended to be... this one still has enough strategy when playing the hole as intended to warrant calling it an excellent golf hole... Seems I struggle with club choice each time I play the hole.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2007, 08:08:30 AM »
Rather than a connecting hole, I would like to nominate two connecting tee-shots.  Both at Riviera.

Riviera has relatively small amounts of elevation change, but has a clubhouse set high above the canyon in which the course is set.  Golf Course Architects have opined about the perils of locating a clubhouse on the high point of the ground, but Riviera succeeds because of these two connecting shots (and a considerable amount of good construction near ~18 green, but that is another story).

The first is the elevated tee-shot from the edge of the clubhouse, down to the canyon floor below.  Pictures to come on my return.

Then the next 17 holes are played on the canyon floor.

Number 18 ascends back to the clubhouse in three stages.  Firstly, there is the tee-shot (the critical connecting shot) which takes the player up to the higher level of #18 fairway.  Then long seconds to the green, follwoed by a climb back up to the clubhouse.

Victor Harbor (a club south of Adelaide) has a similar opening tee-shot but with views of the Southern Ocean.  #18 at Victor is a lesser hole, dealing partly with the climb back to the clubhouse and followed by a rope pulley from the green to the clubhouse.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2007, 11:11:36 AM »
Thanks James!

Reminds me of years ago when I got to play Stanford quite a bit. On the first tee you have to get across the road and down into the valley below - great opening shot.

One of my favorite holes is #13 at Eastmoreland in Portland. I don't know the history of this H. Chandler Egan course, but it seems 13 was required to get around the Rhododenron Garden. I don't think it would be built in the zoning we have today, but it an awesome hole.

Cheers, Jeff
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2007, 05:39:25 AM »
Jeff

Chris Kane and I were talking about this, and we shared a common view on Portsea south of melbourne.  #2 is a short par 4 connecting hole between two valleys played over the side of a hill, with some flat area available for play.  I'm not sure whether it really works as a good hole (you would have to ask a regular).  

However, nearby is one of the best holes you could ever ask to play, and it is a connecting hole.  Again between two valleys of play.

#13 is a par 4 (well 3 and a half) of about 280 yards, played from a lower point to an uphill skyline fairway, with a skyline green.  It is like an uphill cape hole on to the top of a sand dune running diagonally across you.  It feels like if you take the wrong line, you will fall off the face of the earth, either long (if too far right) or short (if too far left).  Pictures in a week or so.  It is truly one of the best connecting holes, and one of the best holes you could ever wish to encounter.

James B
« Last Edit: March 31, 2007, 05:41:01 AM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2007, 01:00:43 PM »
Thanks James.

I'd love to see pictures of the "cape" hole. Do you know if the images on google earth or other sites do it justice?

I've envisioned a hole like this on certain dunes sites. The best one was even a double cape set on the diagonal across dunes ridges.

I do think the older links on unique sites tend to show their "connectors" more than course today where the GCA can create the land forms suitable for the hole.

Cheers, Jeff
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Favorite connecting holes
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2007, 03:43:25 AM »
Portsea #13 (I had a photo already loaded!)



James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)