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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
The plus side of RTJ
« on: March 14, 2007, 04:58:13 PM »
We have discussed the downside of Robert Trent Jones' designs.  But he was a giant in the industry and must have done some positve things that still prevail.
I'll post my thoughts later.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Doug Ralston

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2007, 06:00:23 PM »
Otter Creek [Columbus, IN] is pretty good. Only one I have tried thus far.

Doug

Ray Tennenbaum

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2007, 06:15:49 PM »
I haven't seen those discussions, but I can guess what the feeling is. I've been thinking about RTJ recently, frankly partly because of that GW article about RTJ2 and Rees.

I think he did more good than harm.  & I believe that characterization itself is typical of RTJ and the kind of influence he had.  

Take what might be his most significant contribution: elevating the role of GCA to a profession.  This resulted, for instance, in an unfortunate sense of imposing an identifiable "style" upon sites he, er, handled.  But it also made the building of golf courses a viable proposition, creating a new industry.

Another thing to keep in mind: for me, and I suspect many of us American golfers -- if there's one architect whose work I encountered more than any other's in traveling around, it's probably RTJ.  And given that his most productive period produced so many courses that golfers of "our" generations (aged 35-75) played, I think it's easy to put the blame on him for a lot of what the modern era has wrought which we now regret.

And to be fair, most any other architect with ambitions his size would have done worse, and in fact since his decline, many have.

Finally and maybe more important -- he could often be magnificent, and had a great, intuitive sense of "punishing the almost-good shot" (probably somewhat reined-in, to please his masters) -- while at his worst he was still pretty darned good.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 08:01:15 PM »
I had the good fortune to meet with Mr. Jones on three occasions -- once when I was in the middle of my year overseas, a second time in Florida when I had dinner with him and Mrs. Jones, and a third time when I interviewed him for GOLF Magazine.

At the time of the first meeting he was in his seventies but still jetting around the globe doing deals ... he was important and he wanted you to know that, as opposed to Mr. Dye who was so down to earth.  He had heard about me through Cornell and interviewed me for a job, even though I had my heart set on going back to work for Pete.  Roger Rulewich looked over my plan-drawing abilities and was not so impressed!

A couple of years later, I met Mr. Jones down at Coral Ridge where he spent the winters.  He was a much different man, slowing down a bit, thinking more about his legacy -- he was starting to work on his book "Golf's Magnificent Challenge" and thought I might be of help on the photographic end.  I was glad for the second meeting and the chance to get to know him in a more relaxed setting instead of an interview.

The third meeting was after Mrs. Jones had passed away; he was coming up for the opening of Treetops and I interviewed him while driving over to Gaylord from Traverse City.  He was full of stories then, and it was great to hear him speak of meeting MacKenzie and Tillinghast and Donald Ross, and especially of trying to be partners with Stanley Thompson!

What should be said about Mr. Jones above all else is that he revived and popularized the profession after the long gap from the Depression through World War II.  Most people forget that he had to survive both as a struggling young architect before making it big on the far side; he was the same age that I am today when he was working on Peachtree and The Dunes Club.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2007, 08:38:25 PM »
Tom, nice anecdotes about RTJ.
Ray, he certainly did elevate his profession.
People began to talk about golf course design.  Dick Wilson was a contemporary but RTJ was the one on people's lips.
Tom mentioned Peachtree and The Dunes Golf and Beach Club.  I have played both and they are great designs.

I think what he did that is still with us is make the second shot exciting.  His use of water around the green raised the level of excitement.  Now he wasn't the first to use water but he devolped it and elevated it to a different level.  

While I am not particularly enthralled with his runway tees, he did put a lot of thought in creating a variety of tee boxes.  

I wiah I could have heard some of his conversations with Tilly and Ross.  I wonder what a partenership with Stanley Thompson would have wrought.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 09:14:28 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2007, 08:44:31 PM »
Great post.  

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2007, 08:55:26 PM »
With books about Ross, Tillinghast, Travis, Mackenzie, Thompson et al published in recent years, I wonder when someone's going to write on Robert Trent Jones. I'm sure the market for a such a book, about RTJ and his work, is larger than for those mentioned above, that have already been published.

I'm sure there are some great stories to be told as well.  
jeffmingay.com

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2007, 09:29:50 PM »
How much did RTJ have to do with the RTJ Trail in Alabama?  Did he design some, all or none of the courses?

If you like the courses or not, I think it is a great idea and great success for the state of Alabama.

Tom,

Thanks for the post, it is always nice to hear stories about other Architects and there past.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 09:30:39 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2007, 09:41:24 PM »
Since the early 90's Roger Rulewich was the principle designer of RTJ's courses.  RTJ trail is more Rulewich than RTJ.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2007, 10:13:03 PM »
Good thread, thanks Tom Doak and everyone else, great additions to RTJ history.
My favourite RTJ courses, in order:  Firestone, Spyglass Hill, Ballybunion Cashen Course, Valdarama Spain, Sotogrande Spain, The Dunes and Golden Horseshoe.  Least favourite is Half Moon in Montego Bay, although Rulewich recently "improved it" (from a 2 to 3).

Glad Stanley Thompson decided to keep his other two partners. I've always thought that Jones and Dick Wilson must have had a great competition for many years, and both have left the golf scene better for their efforts.  We don't all agree but its in the dirt to stay.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2007, 10:49:19 PM »
My wife's grandfather was brought to Miami from Germany to develop the Fairchild Gardens.....meanwhile he designed a couple of small courses in S Florida....one day RTJ saw his sons working on a course and asked the grandfather if he could hire one....uncle (John Schmeisser) and her father both worked for RTJ.  John became head of his construction company , Florida golf, and worked at Peachtree as well as most of his other courses.  When John became ill with cancer he flew him wherever he needed to go.  I think he stayed in touch after the death of John.
In 1986 or 87 when my wife's sister married, he and Mrs Jones sat with us at the wedding reception for over 4 hours telling stories.....you could tell he was competitive and did not talk much of other architects but he had earned that right if he chose.....seemed like a nice guy...I know he was always gracious and overly kind to their family....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2007, 06:55:41 AM »

....seemed like a nice guy...I know he was always gracious and overly kind to their family....

So what are you saying? That though one may disparage an architects work, he may still be a decent and honorable man?

RTJ left a huge legacy in Europe. Most of his efforts on the continent are highly rated and widely respected, especially in Spain, where I think he has about 5 of the top ten courses.

I never had the pleasure of meeting the man, but for the past six years I have been GCS at Golf de Joyenval, (Paris, France), with two RTJ courses. This was probably his last effort in Europe, beginning construction in 1989 and opening 1992.

Jones would have been pushing 90, and I believe his abilities may have been declining. Joyenval doesn't compare to his earlier work in Spain. I believe I could improve on the routing, and the bunkers and drainage were a disaster that took years to rectify.

Possibly Jones was unable at his advanced age to properly supervise a project across the Atlantic. Still, it is to his credit that he could do even mediocre golf courses at 90 years old!
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2007, 10:41:23 AM »
I never met RTJ. I assume he could be quite delightful. It sounds like he was generous with his family and friends.

But his attacks on Dick Wilson's person and work were (and remain) unforgivable.

As for his architecture....he was one heck of a salesman. Maybe the best ever.

Bob

 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2007, 08:24:21 PM »

....seemed like a nice guy...I know he was always gracious and overly kind to their family....

So what are you saying? That though one may disparage an architects work, he may still be a decent and honorable man?

Yep.....and I am not saying I disparage his work either....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2007, 08:52:51 PM »
My wife's grandfather was brought to Miami from Germany to develop the Fairchild Gardens.....meanwhile he designed a couple of small courses in S Florida....one day RTJ saw his sons working on a course and asked the grandfather if he could hire one....uncle (John Schmeisser) and her father both worked for RTJ.  John became head of his construction company , Florida golf, and worked at Peachtree as well as most of his other courses.  When John became ill with cancer he flew him wherever he needed to go.  I think he stayed in touch after the death of John.
In 1986 or 87 when my wife's sister married, he and Mrs Jones sat with us at the wedding reception for over 4 hours telling stories.....you could tell he was competitive and did not talk much of other architects but he had earned that right if he chose.....seemed like a nice guy...I know he was always gracious and overly kind to their family....


Mike:

Great anecdote. Sounds like a real gentleman.

"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2007, 09:27:32 PM »
I agree that his work may not be as well regaurded as other, probably because he designed so many courses. However, so did Donald Ross, which asks the question, why so little love? Just thinking of a few courses in my head, I think an arguement could be made that RTJ's average course is better than a Ross.
H.P.S.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 08:18:58 AM »
I agree that his work may not be as well regaurded as other, probably because he designed so many courses. However, so did Donald Ross, which asks the question, why so little love? Just thinking of a few courses in my head, I think an arguement could be made that RTJ's average course is better than a Ross.

I think I'd come down on the other side of this, Pat, depending on what you mean by "better".  Ross courses are typically much, much more enjoyable to play that RTJ courses typically are, at least in my limited experience.  RTJ courses can be long, tough slogs, especially the par fours.  A relatively high % of elevated greens where you can't see the ball land and roll, relatively few holes that are not aerial only, etc.

I would agree with Bob Crosby, I think, that RTJ was most successful as a salesman.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

wsmorrison

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 08:39:54 AM »
Bob C,

Where and how did RTJ disparage Dick Wilson?  I would be very interested in looking at examples of this.

While parenting is not wholly responsible for children's behavior, the decades long infighting between Rees and RTJ, Jr. may be indicative of some sort of family dysfunction.

The Lower Cascades course struck me as an average to below average golf course.  There were some routing constraints but the holes lacked interest and strategic concepts.  The construction work was not well done either, though I'm not sure how the budget came into play.  Did he mail in some designs or let associates do much of the work on some projects?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 10:23:19 AM »
AG,

I understand "better" was not the best word. Obviously it is hard to compare the best works from both, IE Pinehurst #2 and Bellerive/Dunes. However most of the Ross courses I've seen either haven't been preserved well or are just not very good in the first place. RTJ I think had a pretty good sense of building a nice "flow" into a course. Constantly mixing things up and keeping it interesting.

There has been alot of talk on here about how the classic Ross courses need to be restored. Which now makes me want to answer the question, how well have RTJ courses stood up to the times? Do they too need to be restored? I know Bellerive in St. Louis was fairly untouched until last year when Rees came in and altered a few holes.

Pat
H.P.S.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 10:41:16 AM »
Wayne -

A couple of years ago someone posted quotes from RTJ taken from a golf magazine interview in the '60's. When asked about Dick Wilson, RTJ said that Wilson had a drinking problem and that there were problems with his courses. As I recall, RTJ's implication was that there was a link between the two.

I was shocked. It was vicious stuff. In the history of the game, I am unaware of another architect ever saying anything like it. It also must have been a terrible blow to Wilson.

The sad fact is that Wilson did have a drinking problem. But he was also RTJ's main rival and you have to think that the very competitive RTJ was out to nail Wilson. And he sure as heck did.

The irony is that I think Wilson was a better architect, sober or otherwise. (Maybe RTJ knew that too, thus prompting his viciousness. ;))

Bob  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 10:42:41 AM by BCrosby »

wsmorrison

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2007, 11:01:49 AM »
Thanks, Bob.  That was very vicious and unprofessional.  That is not to say that architects should not be critical of another's work, but to do it in that personal way is below the belt.

Dick Wilson seemed to be a troubled but very talented man. I hope there is an in depth study of the man and his courses.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2007, 11:05:35 AM »
The one thing RTJ really had was consistency. His courses are usually tougher then nails and they do have strategy to them as well as a different kind of beauty, but none of this strategy is with-in the fairway, mostly all in the outlaying of the hole itself and exposing all of the difficulties. (this is not a critique, this is an identification of style) Much of these difficulties could be seen from tee to green.

As far as flexibility, the "aircraft carrier tee" probably provided that.

I once heard that Wilson, in an effort to criticize RTJ the best he knew how, built the same kind of tees, only made better use of them. (I don't know Wilson enough to back this up) Maybe this was an answer oir retort to the criticism and disdain they had for one another. It would seem RTJ had his detractors, much like his sons do; but success and the chase for world domination do that.

Steve O., How many times have we had these kinds of posts since the old days? (about RTJ?) ;)

wsmorrison

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 11:15:13 AM »
Tommy,

I don't know if Wilson built aircraft carrier tees as a means of demonstrating something to RTJ.  Flynn was building long tees (some around 100 yards long) well before RTJ ever designed or built a golf course.  If anything, it seems reasonable that Wilson, who worked for Flynn for many years in charge of work crews under construction foremen Red Lawrence or William Gordon, was replicating design theories he learned from Flynn.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 11:15:52 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 11:33:11 AM »
One of the fascinating and prevailing thoughts about RTJ was that he built very long courses.  He did of course.  Nonetheless he also built some courses that had some very good short par fours.  Point O' Woods and the Dunes have a few.  In the DC area he designed a course in the early 70's called the Golden Triangle.  It was so named because of its location in the midst of the Baltimore, Annapolis, and DC triangle.  The owner developer was a mentor and teacheer of mine named Carl Rasnic.  Mr. Rasnic only had funds for nine holes.  He prevailed upon RTJ to design 18 holes but build only 9.  If you were to play the course I defy anyone to say it was an RTJ design.  It had his trademark ponds next to the greens and a couple long par fives.  It did, however, have a collection of short par fours that tempted the player and tested both his ball striking and mental abilities.  It was great fun.
Alas, the course went bankrupt and is now the back nine of Walden GC in Crofton MD.  The holes, unfortunately, bear little resemblance to the course RTJ built.  Many holes were changed to accomodate the encroachment of housing.

As a side note, The Golden Triangle was the site of many a big dollar match between Jim Thorpe, his brother and other gamblers in the area.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt_Ward

Re:The plus side of RTJ
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2007, 11:38:31 AM »
I had the pleasure of Red Hoffman's company in touring RTJ's home in Montclair, NJ and it was truly something I will remember. Red took the time to explain many of the golf elements and it made me really understand the reach RTJ had within the game.

His work will leave many on different sides of the opinion map. I have played a number that were quite fun and challenging and well designed. Mauna Kea and even Spyglass Hill come quickly to mind -- I have also enjoyed many rounds at Hominy Hill in Colts Neck, NJ -- which RTJ designed originally as an exclusive club for Henry Mercer -- the shipping king. Now, the course is operated as a public facility through Monmouth County and is still a treat to play.

I also salute RTJ for his success with the revisions to the 11th and 16th holes at Augusta National.


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