[David_Tepper]

There is some sort of a monument/tombstone on the right side of the 1st fairway at Lincoln Park, San Francisco.

[Kalen Braley]

Theres an old night watchmans shack by the 17th tee at Indian Canyon golf course is Spokane, WA.  Or maybe it was where the greens keeper took up residence, but interesting enough.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sorry to bust everyone's bubble, but the undisputed King of Ruins is of course located in the eternal city:



I don't think this can be topped in terms of age. Also, I hope to be playing there shortly.

Ulrich

[Mike_Cirba]

Real ruins - always cool
Faux ruins - never cool

Restored ruins - kinda cool

Sorry Paul C.  

[Adam Sherer]

Peter:

Are you considering stone walls as a "ruin"?  More specifically, would you consider the stone wall at N. Berwick a "ruin"?

At Shelter Harbor G.C. in Rhode Island, the 2nd hole plays along old stone walls and an old cemetery, I wanted to post a pic, but still haven't figured the whole picture thing yet on this forum.

So, here is a quote of the 2nd at SHGC from their website. www.shgcri.com

"A 430-yard hole that is somewhat reminiscent of the 13th at North Berwick in Scotland. This hole takes advantage of a century-old wall that seperates the tee shot from the landing area. One must decide how much of the old wall they want to carry. The longer the carry, the shorter the approach into the green. And what an approach! Taking advantage of another historic feature, the approach shot skirts along an old cemetery taking a page from the 1st at Ballybunion"

[Doug Ralston]

And of course there is a cool little old silo on the Graham Marsh course 'Old Silo' at Mt Sterling, KY. Hellova course around it too, IMHO.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/Photo%20Pages/Old%20Silo%20Photo.html
Ome pix, though not with the 'silo', sorry.

Doug

[Tim Gavrich]

A few I have seen:

- 8th hole, Heritage Club (Pawleys Island, SC)--there's an old, weeded-over slave cemetery in fromt of the tee.

- 4th/6th holes, Love Course at Barefoot Landing--already discussed, supposed to be the ruins of a former plantation house.

- 1st hole, Fenwick Golf Course (Old(?) Saybrook, CT)--A church is located just off the fairway.

- 13th/17th holes, Pawleys Plantation G&CC--A dike from the former rice plantation on which the course is situated is oncorporated into the design; the tees sit on the dike.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Finally got around to looking through some old disks I had burned a few years ago.

Here is the 9th hole at Old Tabby Links "The Ruins".



Not even remotely close to the play of the hole, but a cool setting none the less.

[Dale_McCallon]

When Keith Foster's crew was developing the Tennesseean they found the remains of a moonshine.  

My home course has a rusted out Buick in the OB area that is clearly visible when the leaves have fallen from the trees.  Does that count?

[paul cowley]

Real ruins - always cool
Faux ruins - never cool

Restored ruins - kinda cool

Sorry Paul C.  

Mike....just curious, is your opinion based on preconception or by having played any of the faux historic hardscape elements that we have been incorporated in some of our designs?

If you have and as a result of this you are of the opinion you have expressed....no need to be sorry, this is one business where you can hardly please everyone. I have found though that at times people have expressed a similar view without having played......I guess its a reaction to the idea that something is faux or fake and and not the real thing. I find it interesting that unless told otherwise, that vast majority accept them as real and find it fascinating. Others are even more fascinated after being told they are fake .

I find that their inclusion in the design can impart other levels of interest, both strategically and aesthetically. They can also make you think about the environment and context in which they exist.

Oh....and they can be fun too [I need to sign you up for the Fort course in SC].

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

My home course has a rusted out Buick in the OB area that is clearly visible when the leaves have fallen from the trees.  Does that count?

Heck my neighbors yard has one of those, does that mean I live in a historic area?  Just kidding, but I think the rusted (or rustic) Buick definitely counts as ruins.


Also I was just digging through more CD's since I had them out, and although you cant really see them very well here I was reminded of the slave cemetary behind the fence on the right side of the 2nd hole at the Donald Steele designed Cherokee Plantation in Yemasee, SC.



Paul, I will have to dig a little deeper see if I can come up with a Patriot pic or two...

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

I am sort of an amateur history buff, and an amateur archeological buff, so I do admittedly come with a negative preconception.

But yes, I have played the one at Barefoot Landing.

It looks pretty authentic, but perhaps it's just my knowing that it isn't is what I can't get past.   I'm reminded of being in Caesar's in Vegas, and walking into that section that is supposed to give you the feeling of being in ancient Rome.   Or, at Epcot where you walk from one country to the next 500 yards down the path.  

Knowing it's not authentic is much different than knowing it is.  I recognize most probably don't care one way or another, but I do.

I've played courses that wind past Civil War relics, stone walls, fences, etc., and they are super cool because they are exactly where these men fought and died and you feel part of living history.

It's hard to tell exactly what the purpose of a faux ruin is, except as part of creating an artificial mood that simulates some past reality.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Hurzdon and Frye's Fieldstone in Delaware has ruin-like structures in the middle of a fairway.  I found them wierd, but kind of cool.

[Powell Arms]

Although they dont come into play, Scotland Run in South Jersey has left some old quarry equipment in the bottom of the quarry.  I believe 16 and 17 wind around the high wall of the quarry.  Kind of a cool effect.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Should I take it that all of these positive responses mean that most in this group feel that these structures are good for golf design?

[Mike_Cirba]

I think authenticity is an important part of whether a ruin works.

One great attribute that separates golf courses from other playing fields is that they have far fewer boundaries or limitations in terms of creativity and are therefore able to reflect what's unique and special in any particular environment or setting.

Sometimes, the history and culture of an area can be an important part of the unique identity and a golf course can help to reflect that.  For instance, would St. Andrews be quite as special without the setting right at the edge of the ancient town, but was instead out in some rural pasture 5 miles away?   As it is, who can walk up the 18th hole along Old Tom's shop, or along the railway on 16, and not feel a sense of place and history.

At its best, that's what any type of ruin should accurately reflect and convey.  

We have enough artifice in the world.  

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You would have loved the Flynn layout (one of two courses was built) at Yorktown CC.  The battlefield is certainly one of America's most important historical sites and sacred to the memory of all who fought there.  The 1920s private club project kept the battlefield from ending up in the hands of a residential developer ensuring the military earthworks were retained and, in fact, incorporated in the golf course design.  The Depression hit the project very hard and it eventually failed, however the military constructions were saved and are enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of tourists each year.

[Jason Blasberg]

Should I take it that all of these positive responses mean that most in this group feel that these structures are good for golf design?

I think like most things the answer is "it depends . .. "

[Tom Roewer]

One of the best examples is in Newark, Ohio @ Moundbuilders Country Club.  It is  a very cool Bendelow built over and through out Eathworks which were designed as to have sky observations, ceremonies, etc.  The pictures that I have are of too poor quality, but it is interesting to go on their website.  The first hole on the golf course shows what to me is maybe the greatest "punchbowl" ever, being surrounded by said mounds!  And in several cases the mounds create both doglegs and cross bunkering all by themselves.  I know that recently they have been having a  bit of political problems concerning the land use, However I believe that having the C.C. there has served to preserve the mounds for a long time nad protected them from developers.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The eighteeth at the yet to be opened Chambers Bay features concrete sorting bins used for grading screened sand and gravel.  I think it makes it look like a WWI battlefield.  

These large concrete ruins are a very large feature and  provide a sense of the history to the quarry course.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom — Thank's for mentioning Moundbuilders. It is, without much doubt, the poster-chgild for this whole topic.

At Wailea (Maui, Hawaii) Jack Snyder preserved ancient Hawaiian walls through the Blue and Orange (NLE). At the Blue we are currently planning for renovating/restoring portions. One wall falls behind a green that had been forgotten about during the past few decades.

[Dan Boerger]

Jim - Good call on Fieldstone, a course I really enjoy. I play there quite a bit and it really works (it's between holes 12 and 14, and I've actually seem someone play from them.)

For a picture ...http://www.fieldstonegolf.com/

-Dan

[Kirk Gill]

Should I take it that all of these positive responses mean that most in this group feel that these structures are good for golf design?

With some exceptions, the larger issue would be whether or not golf course construction is good for these old structures, and whether or not their historical integrity can adequately be maintained and/or displayed within the venue of a golf course.

One place where I think that the history "works" is at Jim Engh's Fossil Trace in Golden, Colorado. Jay Flemma had a piece on his site (http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=165)where he detailed the way that Engh worked with local organizations to preserve the fossils as well as remnants of the mining operation found on the site.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think authenticity is an important part of whether a ruin works.

One great attribute that separates golf courses from other playing fields is that they have far fewer boundaries or limitations in terms of creativity and are therefore able to reflect what's unique and special in any particular environment or setting.

Sometimes, the history and culture of an area can be an important part of the unique identity and a golf course can help to reflect that.  For instance, would St. Andrews be quite as special without the setting right at the edge of the ancient town, but was instead out in some rural pasture 5 miles away?   As it is, who can walk up the 18th hole along Old Tom's shop, or along the railway on 16, and not feel a sense of place and history.

At its best, that's what any type of ruin should accurately reflect and convey.  

We have enough artifice in the world.  

Mike,
I was pleasantly surprised at Barefoot when I saw the faux ruins.  I had expected to be a little put off by them, and instead thought that they fit well.  By coincidence, I played a course here in GA yesterday where a brick chimney from an old farmhouse on the property is still standing in the middle of a bunker; I really don't see much difference.  Either real or faux, they were meant to pay tribute of a sort to times gone by.

I guess my take on it would be that most of a golf course is artifice anyway, but artifice with a purpose.  Certainly bunkers are created to look like something that was a natural feature at TOC, for instance.  I'm not sure I see why a faux ruin that evokes a historical period of the area where the course is located is any different.

A Civil War reenactment, for instance, is obviously "faux combat".  But well done, it can be highly evocative and effective.  I'm o.k. with that, and as a fellow history buff, rather enjoy and appreciate the effort.

[Ken Moum]

I think authenticity is an important part of whether a ruin works.

<snip>

We have enough artifice in the world.  

I agree. The rail lines and walls in Scotland are a good example.

And the current members often see their importance as well.

At Lundin Golf Club, there used to be a railway line that was in play on several holes, but it's been abandoned for some time.

Nevertheless, the  members choose to maintain the area as if it were still active, so it's presence it still felt on those holes.

K

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