[Mark Bourgeois]

Regarding, America's "turning away" from Europe, that's kind of a reductionist, incomplete argument. Politically, you have a point, but...

For example, architecturally speaking, post-WWII America turned towards (pre-WWII) European ideas, not away:

Bauhaus
Gropius
Corbu
Mies
"Modernism"

You could even say Europe's Post-WWII architectural ideas continued to flow from Europe to America (deconstructivism).

In the arts, I think you could make a similar argument that America did not turn away from Europe. (For example, Post-WWII abstract expressionism that took root in NYC descended from European modernism and surrealism.)

What this means for this discussion, I have no idea.

Regarding Trump, though, couldn't his views actually have prevailed in the early 1800s when the "Picturesque" philosophy of landscapes and gardens was popular?  My understanding of Picturesque was that it represented a belief or representation of an ordered, classical nature.  (And then Romanticism came along and introduced the concept of "manufactured" or stylized "wildness.")

Adam, is your comment regarding Alexandria an oblique reference to Tom Stoppard's "Arcadia"?

Mark

[Adam_F_Collins]

...Adam, is your comment regarding Alexandria an oblique reference to Tom Stoppard's "Arcadia"?

No Mark, it wasn't. I was referring to the ancient library of Egypt which contained as many as several hundred thousand scrolls - famous even in the 3rd century, it was perhaps the earliest great bank of information. It was destroyed (and how is unclear), but it is suggested that the progress of civilization was set back enormously be the loss of that store of written work.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Adam,

Yes, that's it! There's a passage in the play where a character laments the huge loss to civilization via the fire.

But another character responds by listing all the plays still available to us and says something like, "We shed what we cannot pick up, and what we let fall will be picked up by those behind."

Basically he says we count our blessings for what we have, and we should not grieve for what's lost to history because it's not necessarily lost to time, at least not the basic truths.  In the long sweep of history generations and civilizations come along and pick up what predecessors left behind or dropped because they couldn't carry.

It's a beautiful passage, full of hope.  The lesson I took from it was how much universal truths embodied by art are never really lost to time.  One generation / civilization is always dropping something, but a succeeding generation / civilization comes along and discovers it anew.

So I guess Stoppard would say in response that while a lot of art was lost in the fire, "civilization" was not diminished because of it.

Believe it or not, there's also a fair amount on the history of landscape architecture in the play, too!

Mark

[TEPaul]

There seems to be some real knowledge in those last three posts that supply a lot of food for thought.

Thanks

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark
a fine post. Those ARE hopeful sentiments. But History, as it comes down to us, misses much I think: e.g. for centuries, my ancestors toiled away on the land in southern Italy, without record, without notice, their living and dying of meaning and import only to themselves, while History speaks of the great Italian Rennaissance and the flowering of art to its highest level in 1500 years. There are countless parallel examples of such stories, forgotten by History, and many of those are tragic ones. History passes most of us by, if we're lucky.  

And then there's also this, that History can never record what, for all we know, might be the most significant and meaningful events of all: e.g. the wonder and awe of a single solitary child, 500 years ago, in South America perhaps, as she looks up at the starry night sky; or the quiet, simple joy of an old pensioner in New York, opening the windows on a warm spring day to smell the flowers and to hear the birds. History can't capture the individual and deeply personal experiences of the human soul.  

Apologies for the digression; all I can say is that your post brought these thoughts to mind. Maybe the gardens we've been speaking about are important most of all for the nearly infinite number of personal and individual experiences they've inspired, and for the spirits they have raised and lightened. Maybe the greatest of golf courses have that in common with gardens.

Peter        

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter,

Yes on recorded history, and yes on the failure of Big-H History to capture moments in time.

I liked what Stoppard wrote because he reconciles this by describing time not as linear, which would be a narrative history, but more cyclical, as moments lost then recaptured by generations. Better way to put it would be time as cyclical, as a succession of "eternal presents."  He shows how timeless and "present" the goings-on at an estate are, despite involving two groups of people living more than a century apart.

Anyway, the landscape architecture angle: in the play, several of the characters are trying to figure out a mystery about "the genius of the place." Was it Lord Byron, who was rumored to visit?

But the point is it's not about "the genius of the place" but about the "genius of place."

That's the landscape architecture point in the play: the "genius" of place is how a manmade environment when done right (genius of man) can connect the individual to "nature" in a way that enables them to access these eternal presents.  And that lets generations rediscover -- pick up -- those things dropped by earlier generations.  It gets to the notion of time rather than "history."  That was the idea as I understood it anyway -- Stoppard can be impossible!

I don't know how to apply the concept to a golf course, but I think the number of courses that would have such a "genius of place" must be very small, indeed.  I keep thinking of Donald Steel's wish to find a featherie lodged in the whins on some old links. Now, *that* would definitely be an "Arcadia" moment!

Dang, that play was awesome...gotta see it again.

Mark

[Peter Zarlengo]

Mark-
Interesting point of "genius" of a place. I have thought a lot about this as we have been studying genius loci in my design studio. Here are the three rules recomended in creating genius loci

1. Design for a unique point on the Earth
2. Identify where you are
3. Manifest the sacred

I think that you are right on with the generational thing, but I dont necessarily think that the madmade environment has to connect the viewer with nature.

In identifying genius loci on a golf course, I think that the "genius" almost has to come with experience. Coming down the 18th at Harbor Town or in Amen Corner, a certain genius is identified based on the recognizable landscape and the unique elements of the site.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Peter,

How would you set about trying to create #3 in a garden or a golf course?

I like your comments that get at how genius of place is about engineering or at least designing for the possibility of eternal presents, if I understood your point correctly.

But as to nature, walking through The Ramble in Central Park you very much get the sense of this connection to nature, the intent of the design to engineer those moments, and interestingly a "narrative" or progression not unlike that of a course routing.

Now I am thinking about bill coore's description of "quiet moments."

That would be one kind of eternal present: a feeling or experience that is rediscoverd by successive golfers, not by accident but as a consequence of man designing for genius of place.

Harbour Towne and Augusta offer a different type of moment. What would we call that type, what are other types, and does anyone actually design for them (besides coore's efforeta to engineer quiet moments)?

Mark

[Peter Zarlengo]

Manifesting the sacred in a landscape is all about connecting the user with something of high value. An example, which I chose to do for my research project, was Shenyang University in China. Instead of using what we would consider "normal" plant materials, they planted their campus with a certain type of golden rice only found in the region. This not only gave the students an education in regional plants, but connected users to an element that was unique to the region. Most importantly, the planting of rice celebrated the staple crop of China.

In a golf course, sacred elements could be anything. Thats why I asked the question about ruins on a course. Sacred elements could be views, structures, or plants. Thats why I initially thought of Harbour Town, with the lighthouse. You have no doubts about where you are, with the red lighthouse in the background. And the design of the hole celebrates the focal point of an island.

I guess I would call that moment a sense of place which, as I said earlier, draws from site and program. I would guess that every golf architect designs for a sense of place, in some manner. Elements to consider when drawing from site are:

Infrastructure
Soils
Context
History
Vegetation
Wildlife
Sun
Wind
Views
Hydrology

[TEPaul]

Jeeez, guys, it sounds interesting but it's pretty much all over my head.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom Paul,

In Bob Cullen's book, "Why Golf?", he makes an analogy between Plato's Cave and Tiger Woods as representing the prisoner who escapes.  Tiger represents the closest thing to perfection, and that's why so many follow him so intently.

So Cullen's at a press conference, and he actually gets the chance to ask Tiger this question about Plato's Cave.  It's long and drawn out, as you might expect. Then it's Tiger's turn to reply. He passes his hand over his hat and says, "Whoosh. Right over my head."  End of discussion.

Peter, how's this: you walk through woods after finishing play on the third hole at Bethpage Black.  The woods offer a "departure" from holes 1-3, in that the fourth hole is completely unexpected based on what came before.

The first time I saw it, I didn't know anything about the course.  But immediately I thought "glacier," and remembered the geological history of Long Island.  It was, in its scale, its bunkering, and its rise of elevation, very much the embodiment of Long Island's prehistory, when it was in Fitzgerald's phrase "a fresh green breast of the New World." (Wow, just went back to that passage and it definitely describes an "eternal present".)

In retrospect, the walk provided a type of bridge back in time, which leads one to connect then to now and beyond -- an eternal present.  There's just something about coming out of the woods and to that tee which feels different...

I wonder how many eternal presents are down to this "manifesting of the sacred"?

Another example has to be on Turnberry Ailsa.  First you pass the ruins of Robert the Bruce's castle.  (Gets you thinking about it as a symbol of man's eternal fight against tyranny?)  Then you pass the monument to those who died in WWI and WWII in connection with the airstrip.  (Fight against tyranny.)  Because of this connection between two very distant eras, it's like the place stands for something that's actually outside of time.

What one generation drops, another comes along to pick up.

Mark

[Norbert P]

A few years back my only appreciation of flowers and shrubs was

limited to fruit blossoms (future food!) gorse, heather and daphne

bloomage, the lattest as a connective link with a dear departed mother.

Now, being a journeyman landscaper, I've gained appreciation through

the need to know and to discuss the subjects professionally with

clients.  I find that most clients are into tidy visuals with order

(Thus, though self-educating, I don't show them pictures of my back

yard - a virtual test plot of chaos.)  They virtually all want low

maintenance as they don't want to turn their place into work - but a

place of relaxation, and, if I've done my part effectively, a place

they feel comfortable sharing with others to enjoy.
   
   My point is, people find value with various forms of nature -

manmade or not.  Golfers are people - individuals with hidden and

exposed complexities who find values within a limitless environment of

peace and turmoil. If a landscape steers us toward the more peaceful,

inspiring, or energizing, then the scape is working. Our brains are

wired for addictions that spike our pleasure centers; perhaps the

well-struck golf shot being one of them, or the smell of Daphne odora

another. At best, our senses shouldn't be competing or even isolated

from one another, or over-filtered through our selective and preloaded

minds.

    If in this troubled world the apple is reachable, then on Earth

Eden is as well.
   

[Tony Ristola]

Interesting print.
I like the island green and how the finishing holes of each nine wrap around the pond.

[Marty Bonnar]

Every Scottish schoolboy has heard the story that the sacred geometry of TOC is actually a Merovingian clue to the whereabouts of the holy grail and the true home of the knights templar.



Funnily enough, when viewed upside down through squinty eyes, the image is strangely reminiscent of the early incarnations of Mickey Mouse...

FBD.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,
In Bob Cullen's book, "Why Golf?", he makes an analogy between Plato's Cave and Tiger Woods as representing the prisoner who escapes.  Tiger represents the closest thing to perfection, and that's why so many follow him so intently.
So Cullen's at a press conference, and he actually gets the chance to ask Tiger this question about Plato's Cave.  It's long and drawn out, as you might expect. Then it's Tiger's turn to reply. He passes his hand over his hat and says, "Whoosh. Right over my head."  End of discussion."

MarkB:

I like that and it's another good example why Woods continues to impress me. In interviews the guy seems very to the point, honest, thoughtful and quite often with a veneer of very dry humor.

I'm glad he answered Cullen that way. Sometimes these kinds of discussions and subjects can get a bit far out there and some may chase them just to sound deep and to convince themselves they're delving into some ultra intellectual side of things.

It's one of the thoughts I constantly have about Max Behr's writing that I'm frankly so interested in---eg did he just go way over the head of way too many, and if so why was that? It could be that a great many;

1. Didn't understand him
2. Basically did understand him to some degree but didn't really care enough about the points he made.

I think this is an excellent subject that Brad Klein started with this thread and I spoke with him quite a bit about it when he was developing it with his wife for a presentation and talk in Scotland last week.

I also saw him at a conference in Baltimore where he spoke (about something else) and on the way to the airport we spoke about not much else but this thread's subject. I told him I thought this subject had the potential to be a truly interesting one and perhaps very impactful if it was developed correctly and presented in an understandable way. But I also told him this subject could have the potential to just fly right over too many peoples' heads----just like Tiger said---"Whoosh, right over my head."  

But it seems to me the very best it will ever do is appeal to some---hopefully a significant enough amount of golfers---because I don't think there's any doubt at all it will never appeal to all.

But again, it's a "Big World"---golf and architecture is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone.  

[Rich Goodale]

Re: the topic under consideration:

No, any more than a rose is a tulip or a kelp forest........

[BCrosby]

It's always a pleasure to welcome a Newbie to the site with what must be an extremely aristocratic lineage.

That pleasure is increased when I also agree with the views of the distinguished R. Farnsworth.

Bob

[Mark_Fine]

Brad,
Actually a golf course is an obstacle course that is sometimes disguised as a garden  

[Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS]

Brad,

Shortly after the current incarnation of Milwaukee Country Club was open (1927) Jens Jensen was commissioned to develop and implement a landscape design for the property.  His original plan called for vast open space interspersed with small groves of trees (American Elm, Black Chestnut, etc.) throughout the property which, upon review of the plan, did not interfere with the golf course architecture of Mr. Alison.  The demise of the American Elm and the introduction of fairway irrigation (center row) led to the eventual disintegration of what appeared to be a landscape plan that actually enhanced the golf course.

To your question; I believe a golf course is many things to a community, an open space, a habitat for wildlife, a playing field and a garden that is home to any number of plant species.

Although closely tied there is a difference between a golf course architect and a landscape architect, think specialists.  I’m certain you or someone on your staff is capable of performing the duties of a landscape architect to some extent, my question to the architects are; How often to you employ specialists during the design and build of your courses?  Would the implementation of a quality landscape design help enhance your quality golf course design?  Given the bad rap that golf courses unduly get by some environmental groups, would marrying the two hasten the permitting process for new construction and or large scale renovation?  

Pat Sisk

[TEPaul]

"Although closely tied there is a difference between a golf course architect and a landscape architect, think specialists.  I’m certain you or someone on your staff is capable of performing the duties of a landscape architect to some extent, my question to the architects are; How often to you employ specialists during the design and build of your courses?  Would the implementation of a quality landscape design help enhance your quality golf course design?  Given the bad rap that golf courses unduly get by some environmental groups, would marrying the two hasten the permitting process for new construction and or large scale renovation?"

Pat Sisk:

I think generally speaking that consulting specialists, for instance in landscape architecture on a golf course, can be a good thing but it does have the danger of being carried too far in some instances, in my opinion. I'll give you what I think is a good example.

Recently we did a bit of architectural reconfiguring in a grade sense behind our clubhouse (constructed a bent lawn at a heightened grade dilineated by a new wall).  

I wanted to see the wall at the end of the lawn be done in such a way that it would create something of a HaHa effect (the end of the lawn would create something of a diminishing line with what lay beyond it over the wall).

Well, to my dismay the township has apparently come up with something of a new "rule" or "regulation" that near top of the wall must be planted with vegetation apparently not less than two feet high. And why did they demand this? Apparently they think some little no-neck monster child will run screaming across the lawn and injure himself by falling over the wall.

So much for my HaHa dimishing line effect.  

I'm inclined to tell the township to shove their two foot high vegetation requirement and just accept the fact that little no-neck-monster children are supposed to skin their knees and elbows and chins----that's what they do and what they're good at---that's part of their "right of passage" to becoming responsible adults and taking away that "learning experience" by offering them the visual cue that they may fall on their bothersome little faces is for the birds---it's bullshit---it's unnatural and unnecessarily coddling of the little horrors.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()