Jack Nickaus and Arnold Palmer

« **on:** March 10, 2007, 10:41:14 PM »

What of their many courses are amongst your favorites,and why?

« **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2007, 10:47:23 PM »

I love the Jack Nicklaus Ocean course in Bintan Indonesia (Bintan Lagoon) because it was the first course I ever played - before lessons, before the driving range, before everything!

« **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2007, 10:58:45 PM »

Wow Shane,is ther a link?Asia is so different ,my wife was a caddy in the Phillipines at a 36 hole JN project and I reacall picking small hot,hot hot chilis in the rough.....Was ther housing? Did it sell?...Greg

« **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:01:24 PM »

Mayacama - pretty hard but fair, more complexities and subtleties than what I've typically seen in Nicklaus courses, lots of variety in all aspects of play, and a great location

« **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:03:49 PM »

Quote from: Greg Cameron on March 10, 2007, 10:41:14 PM

What of their many courses are amongst your favorites,and why?

Greg, I haven't played enough of either one of theirs, but I really don't try to seek out their courses either.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:08:08 PM »

Dvavid ,I ask because they have done so much work and they never seem to get respect here.What's their best?

« **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:22:45 PM »

Greg,

Here is the link: http://web.bintanlagoon.com/golf-JN.htm

There are actually two courses - the other is an Ian Baker-Finch and personally I prefer it.

There was housing but no one lived in it - it was just for guests wanting to stay in a villa. Some were owned by Singaporeans as an investment. But my husband and I would gaze longingly. I think there were even discussions about possible commuting from Bintan to Singapore (50 minute ferry ride).

In fact if anyone is in that part of the world I would recommend a trip to Bintan - the Gary Player course at Ria (near the Club Med) is a truly excellent course - well worth a visit.

« **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:28:54 PM »

Quote from: David_Madison on March 10, 2007, 11:01:24 PM

Mayacama - pretty hard but fair, more complexities and subtleties than what I've typically seen in Nicklaus courses, lots of variety in all aspects of play, and a great location

yes, Mayacama is quite good

« **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2007, 01:50:43 PM »

Has Arnie tweaked Bay Hill enough that we can consider it a Palmer design?

« **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2007, 03:30:56 PM »

:

Just got back from the Majors Golf Course in Palm Bay, Florida just west of Melbourne. Had a little shoot out!

One of my favorite Palmer designs, it has lots of different looks to the holes, some neat risk reward (#3,13) and enough length from the back tees. Not too many ripples and knolls in the fairways, the shaping is natural and flows. Harrisson Minchew spent a lot of time there during construction , and the detail work is good. Fun to play.

Great practice range which is a huge plus. Also, the housing that surrounds course doesn't intrude on play like many Florida courses, which is good.

A really nice public layout, and worth seeing/playing while traveling thru the area..

« **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2007, 09:25:43 PM »

Mayacama is a very solid course on a difficult site. Sebonack is a great course in a neighborhood of even better courses. The Concession is a very good course in a state full of incredibly average courses on like sites.

Traylee is somewhat disfunctional but is my favorite Palmer course for 4 or 5 dramatic holes and also is a fun fun place to play.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2007, 09:35:44 PM »

I agree with Tiger that Tralee is my favorite Palmer course. Palmer courses are typically fun to play as opposed to JN where the designs can be a wee bit too difficult. However, the back nine at Tralee is breathtaking, challenging and fun. A great combination in a wonderful setting!

« **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2007, 09:37:51 PM »

Nicklaus has so many courses. Muirfield Village has the highest Golfweek ranking. The Concession won Golf Digest's Best New Private course for 2006. Tiger Bernhardt has played The Concession and said it was a fine course.

The other Nicklaus courses most commonly cited as great courses are Valhalla, Castle Pines, and Shoal Creek. I have played Shoal Creek, and I thought it was a wonderful place. Great atmosphere. The course is beautiful and demanding, but there is a distinct lack of variety among the holes. The par 3s play similar distances, and all of the par 4s are between 380 and 450 yards long. All 3 shorter par 5s (495-525 yards) require a long carry over water to reach the green in two shots.

« **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2007, 10:34:22 PM »

Musgrove Mill near Greenville SC (see Turboe's current thread with aerial photos) is my favorite Palmer design team course I've played. Great variety of holes, good risk/reward, daunting 9th and 18th holes.

The big drawback there is the floodplain in which the course is located, but Palmer gets no demerits for that, I wouldn't think.

Musgrove Mill is a must play in that area of South Carolina.

« **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2007, 11:47:41 PM »

John I too like Shoal Creek at great deal. I did not list it for the very reason you noted. It could be a Fazio course. lol Guy thanks for the spelling correction as well as noting how great the back nine is.

« **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2007, 11:51:04 PM »

Bill, Musgove Mill has spent much of the winter addressing the flooding to the course, especially around the 14th green. Now 8 & 9 are different stories.

« **Reply #16 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:18:14 AM »

Tommy, what could they do about the general flooding problem, given the flood plain nature of the property? Are they raising fairways and greens? That would be an expensive fix, maybe a new Boulder Dam would be cheaper!

« **Reply #17 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:31:06 AM »

Quote from: John Nixon on March 11, 2007, 01:50:43 PM

Has Arnie tweaked Bay Hill enough that we can consider it a Palmer design?

I would agree with that 100%. To begin with, the routing adopted by Dick Wilson was largely the work of Robert Trent Jones (with the input of Thomas Barnes, the original developer). So there should be NO mention of Dick Wilson pertaining to the current design.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 12, 2007, 09:53:12 AM »

Quote from: Doug Sobieski on March 12, 2007, 09:31:06 AM

Quote from: John Nixon on March 11, 2007, 01:50:43 PM
Has Arnie tweaked Bay Hill enough that we can consider it a Palmer design?

I would agree with that 100%. To begin with, the routing adopted by Dick Wilson was largely the work of Robert Trent Jones (with the input of Thomas Barnes, the original developer). So there should be NO mention of Dick Wilson pertaining to the current design.

I think Dick Wilson would be happy to give up any affiliation with the current design of Bay Hill.

« **Reply #19 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:28:21 PM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on March 12, 2007, 09:18:14 AM

Tommy, what could they do about the general flooding problem, given the flood plain nature of the property? Are they raising fairways and greens? That would be an expensive fix, maybe a new Boulder Dam would be cheaper!

Bill it is more along the order of well placed boulders. Over the years they have worked on berms, and shaping goround to redirect the river back into the river. When it floods at 15 or 8 not much can be done.

« **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:42:30 PM »

Let's hope it works.

As Daryl will remember, what I enjoyed most about MM was trouncing my opponent, a great buddy from Pensacola, in a singles match. I had handled him the first two rounds of the trip (Athens CC and Cateechee) and he increased the bet on day 3, indicating he now had his A game. I won the first 6 holes!

Musgrove Mill is a GREAT match play course! There are all kinds of risky opportunities and many opportunities to confront disaster.

« **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2007, 08:47:49 PM »

for Jack, Muirfield Village and the Lost Tree redo.

Would welcome a discussion of whether the lost tree redo should count. I count it because the green complexes are totally Jack, and are great tests. In addition, Jack changed one par four on the back and materially improved its layout.

« **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:31:42 PM »

My favorite Nicklaus course is Ross Creek Landing, which is part of The Bear Trace in Tennessee.

I've only played three Palmer courses (to my knowledge.) I can't endorse any of them as favorites. I've played Gillette Ridge in CT, Cherokee Run in GA, and King's Creek in TN. I guess I'd nominate Cherokee Run of those three, though it is only because it has been the longest since I played it so I've forgotten the most. I'm not a fan of the other two at all. I realize I've played far too little Palmer to form a reasonable opinion on him as an architect, but I haven't been impressed with what I've seen.

« **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:47:49 PM »

Cullasaja- Palmer

The Reserve at Lake Keowee-Nicklaus
Bear Creek-Nicklaus(not finished)

« **Reply #24 on:** March 13, 2007, 03:30:33 PM »

It may not be my "favorite" but it was a wonderful surprise to and joy to play The Challenge at Manele. It is a superb use of the land. The tee shots offer different options depending on how far you can hit the ball, width to get the correct angle into the green and dramatic holes along the ocean. If I had one complaint it would be the greens complexes. I thought they lacked ingenuity and variety.

As for Palmer, it probably comes as no surprse that Musgrove Mill is my absolute favorite. I don't think it is like any other course I have played. It is absolutley unique.

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