Rate Pebble Beach

[wsmorrison]

"If Pebble isn't a ten, then ten doesn't exist."

Come on, do you really believe that?  I can understand the emotional investment many of us have for courses that are dear to us, but there are lousy holes on the golf course.  One lousy hole, in my mind and Tom Doak's definition, discounts the possiblility of a course being a 10.  Several average holes in addition to a couple of lousy ones means the course should not even be considered a 9.  

Are we going by Tom Doak's definitions or your own?  If by Tom's, then by no means can Pebble be considered a 9 or a 10.

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
First of all, there are no what I would call "poor" holes at Pebble Beach.  Are there some that are not great, absolutely.  But then again, I could name less than "great" holes on other world classs courses such at #17 and #18 at Royal County Down and #1 at Shinnecock Hills (both courses of which I give 10's).  

So given that there are no poor holes, Pebble Beach should at least garner a 9.  Tom's scale for what is a 10 is still a bit subjective and I can see how some would not push some courses to this level.  On my personal list, I think my number of 10's that I have played is around 12-15.  Are those courses perfect?  No.  But as far as I am concerned, they are as good as golf gets on this planet (at least of what I've seen).  

Chip,
By the way, I don't agree with everything Tom Doak says.  We compared ranking lists of our 250 favorite courses around the world for a number of years (Ran and others included).  All of us tend to be close on our views (within a point one way or the other) about 80-90% of the time.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne:

I just don't like the definitions.  If one sticks to the words, it's pretty clear to me you can't give TOC anything but a 10... whereas as much as I think Tim is correct and no course ought to clearly surpass Pebble, if one sticks to the words it's tough to justify 10, at least for those who find the inland holes to be weak golf holes (which I don't).  Once again here are said definitions:


8:  One of the very best in the region and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but will make up for them with something really special.

9:  Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.


If you find the inland holes weak, then of course you can't give it 9 or 10.  Methinks you have a bit more splainin' to do to justify 7, but well... as I've said I can see the line of thinking.

I believe where us Pebbleites would differ from you is we don't see the inland holes as weak.  I find a lot to love on each of them.  But I can understand the thinking, anyway.

So I want to reword this so Pebble can get a 10.  Here's the HuckaDoak rephrasing:


Nearly perfect, with most holes so obviously great that even if some are not, they make up the deficit in spades - and even on the less obviously great holes there is more to see than might quickly meet the eye. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.


Now it's a 10.

 

[ChipRoyce]

Chip - there is room for more than a few tens on this planet.

 

Huck;
I knew that once Pebble was discussed you'd appear from the shadows
I enjoy your sense of humor and fun - hope to have a chance to meet up for a beer some day.
Chip

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh hell yes Chip, we need to make that happen.

Hope you enjoy my blatant cheating and re-wording....

 

[Jim Nugent]

Huck, I saw that someone gave TOC a 5.  Pebble too?   Either way I'd like to see the course review from that poster.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck, I saw that someone gave TOC a 5.  Pebble too?   Either way I'd like to see the course review from that poster.  

WOW!  I didn't notice that re TOC... I wonder if it is the same curmudgeon.. and if so, what courses are GREAT in his world...

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

You surely can make changes to definitions and I would probably agree with your assessment upon redefinition.  One thing I am pretty certain is that a round at Pebble Beach with you, well that I think would make it a 10    

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

You surely can make changes to definitions and I would probably agree with your assessment upon redefinition.  One thing I am pretty certain is that a round at Pebble Beach with you, well that I think would make it a 10    

Indeed.  But be careful... I am the Medusa of Golf... one look at my er, uh, unique swing and it turns good swings to stone....

 

[PThomas]

Tom,

You surely can make changes to definitions and I would probably agree with your assessment upon redefinition.  One thing I am pretty certain is that a round at Pebble Beach with you, well that I think would make it a 10    

Indeed.  But be careful... I am the Medusa of Golf... one look at my er, uh, unique swing and it turns good swings to stone....

 

you're in good form Huck..."The Medusa of Golf"..."HuckaDoak rephrasing"

[Tom Huckaby]

Golly, I'm hot today!

Tom Havecamp

[Mark Bourgeois]

What about the routing?

Not that this is the only valid basis for judgment, but compared to other oceanside courses I've played or read about, Pebble rises to the top. (For the experts out there, could the course have been routed any better given the land available?)

For example, reading Philip's posts and pictures on Kawana, I was struck by how many holes appear to be uphill or downhill.

In contrast, if there's one word that describes Pebble to me, it's sidehill.  Many of the holes create a fear only otherwise experienced when trying to hang onto a cheap, hotel mattress that slopes dangerously toward the alarm clock: sometimes the challenge is just to keep the ball on the planet, or at least the designated hole.

And thanks to the routing the sidehill isn't one way. Pebble sorts out hookers and slicers alike.

More on the routing: many oceanside courses seem to use the ocean for one stretch; it's a turn towards followed by a turn away. But at Pebble the routing brings you out to the ocean, turns away (used to!), comes back, turns away again, then finally a return back.  I like these turns; the more the better.

I haven't played it since the new par 3, but this is where I think those who don't approve may have a point.  The old routing gave you a tease then turned you away if only for a little while.  Coming to 6 that way had this buildup, kinda like when you finally see the shark in "Jaws"...does it still?

Interesting because what if the new hole is better than the old but the old routing is better than that new?  This seems to be the "test case" of the degree to which people feel a course's greatness lies in its holes versus its whole.

FWIW, I too think 17 is way overrated.  To me it's a flag stick at the end of two football fields.  But 8-10, 14, & 18 -- oh my!

Mark

[cary lichtenstein]

Pebble is certainly a golf course where the sum is greater than the average of the parts

[Kalen Braley]

Golly, I'm hot today!

Tom Havecamp

See now...you all got the Huckster all stirred up again.  And please no mention of the new 5 or old 5, no one wants to see that poor animal get any more beatings than it already has.

As to my opinion, just like there are a couple of holes at TOC that aren't must sees, the same is true at Pebble.  I personally give PB a 9 because holes 1 and 2 are not lousy, they are just not memorable.

A lousy hole would be 18 at Delta View as Huck can attest to  

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, you are a bad bad man.  

Mark - we recently had about an 11 page battle which began with how new 5 fits in v. old 5.  Go back a few pages, you'll find it.  I believe every possible angle has been contemplated therein to the point of great nausea.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, you are a bad bad man.  

Mark - we recently had about an 11 page battle which began with how new 5 fits in v. old 5.  Go back a few pages, you'll find it.  I believe every possible angle has been contemplated therein to the point of great nausea.

 

lol Tom,

I just re-read the post and realized the potential double meaning there.  The old animal taking the beating is the "new 5th/old 5th" arguement.

Just so you knew....I love you man, I love you..  

[Tom Huckaby]

Oh I got it all right....

I just figure at this point any comment at all on PB#5 makes one a bad, bad man.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Oh I got it all right....

I just figure at this point any comment at all on PB#5 makes one a bad, bad man.

 

Very true Tom,

But can't you just at least admit, its makes the drama of the 6th that much nicer as it unfolds before you.  

Its kinda like living in a 2 bedroom shack on the penisula that cost $800K.  After driving thru Oakland for a hour or two, makes that shack seem like a palace and you feel lucky to live there.  Its all relative man  

[Bob_Huntley]

Let's get to the nub of the argument.

Take the par threes. CPC's 15th and 16th are better than PB's 5th and 12th. However PB's 7th and 17th are better than CPC's 3rd and 7th.

Take the par 5s. CPC's 2nd is better than PB's 2nd. However PB's 6th, 14th and 18th are better than the remainder up the coast.

I'll go onto the par fours after you chaps have a bash, but please, don't tell me the obstacle courses of CPC's 17th and 18th are better than any hole at PB.


Bob  

[JESII]

Let's get to the nub of the argument.

Take the par threes. CPC's 15th and 16th are better than PB's 5th and 12th. However PB's 7th and 17th are better than CPC's 3rd and 7th.

Take the par 5s. CPC's 2nd is better than PB's 2nd. However PB's 6th, 14th and 18th are better than the remainder up the coast.

I'll go onto the par fours after you chaps have a bash, but please, don't tell me the obstacle courses of CPC's 17th and 18th are better than any hole at PB.


Bob  

I like the way you break it down Bob, Comparable par is the only way in my opinion.

Having not played CPC, care to switch it up a bit...how would PB #7 compare to CPC #15? I ask that assuming they are the shortest on each course...

Are 17 and 18 at CPC so bad that all 18 at PB are better? How could the best course in the world in so many people's minds have dogmeat as its closing two?

[Kalen Braley]

If this is dogmeat, then pile my plate wide and high with it.

[JESII]

Before I get roasted, let me clarify...I think Pebble has a few mediocre holes...1, 12, 13...Bob suggested that 17 and 18 are worse than all of Pebble's holes...perhaps the term "dogmeat" was too much, but I hate deleting posts on here so I'll stick with it.

[Bob_Huntley]

JES II

You take the 18th at CPC....as Youngman said, please. A hole that needs a towering shot to clear a prominent tree, or a pushed or floozled shot to the right, leaving no avenue to an uphill green. In my over forty years of playing the hole with members of average ability, the chance of their getting a par there is remote. Once on the green if you are above the hole you may well have a "de-greening."


The 17th is a stuningly beautiful hole and when much younger, I welcomed playing it. However, the copse of cypress trees interferes with the shot value for all but the longest hitters. Electing to go right of the trees and land the ball on the green in any sort of breeze requires a mastery that 90% of its members do not possess. I did see a home movie of Eddie Lowery pleading with Byron Nelson not to take that route in the Crosby, without success. Nelson hit a long iron over the water and twenty yards right of the green  and it came down a few feet from the pin.

I am not saying that the 17th is dogmeat at all, but it could be much better than it is.



Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

This is a thread about Pebble, but would like to hear what others think those trees do to the strategy and play of the hole, especially for a hole location to the rear (left).

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bob,

Thanks. Our posts crossed.

Mark