Rate Pebble Beach

[Andy Levett]

The votes for The Old Course have tailed off and the poll has now been archived and a new one started for Pebble Beach.

TOC put down an impressive marker with an average vote of 9.34 on the Doak scale. (Remember this isn't Spinal Tap, the scale doesn't go up to 11) Will the most famous public course in America match or better the most famous course in the world?

Click here to cast your vote in the second of what will hopefully be a long-running series and add comments, if so inclined, on this thread.

[wsmorrison]

With a mixture of mediocre holes, solid holes and spectacular ones, I would give Pebble Beach no more than an 8 and could argue that it is really a 7 with some great views.  But the wind off the ocean helps out more so than the views.  Too bad the low artificial dunes cannot be returned.  This course is ranked too high on everybody's lists.  Tom Doak gave it a 9 and said if pressed he could consider it among the top 10 courses in the US.  Not for me, even with some outstanding small pitched greens.  Were they always this small?  Photos of 7 green over time would indicate that some of the greens may have shrunk or been remodeled.  It is been too long since I've played there, but does anyone that knows the course well think the greens have shrunk and if so, where?

[Phil Benedict]

I won't vote because I haven't played it, but I think it's a good choice for this exercise because there is a real difference of opinion about the architecture, mostly having to do with the supposed weakness of certain holes.

[Joel_Stewart]

To rate PB is splitting hairs.  Its in the top 1% of courses in the world and probably the top .02% of courses in the world. I recently played with 2 members of Cypress Point who both prefered Pebble to Cypress.

[Bob_Huntley]

Joel,

Having played both for something like plus forty years, I agree with your friends take on the courses. Cypress for a quiet day in the country on an extraordinary beautiful piece of land, with a couple of the most astounding holes in creation makes for a divine day on the links. However, no matter how you look at it, Pebble Beach is a better test of golf.


Bob

[Bob Jenkins]

Going back to the Doak scale (which should probably be published in each edition of this series) there is no doubt that Pebble is not to be missed under any circumstance. It is a must, in spite of the cost and bother to get and stay there. I have often said to those who think it is nuts to pay $400 or whatever to play there that I bet they have spent that amount on a dinner with clients or on your wife's birthday present. Worth that amount for a present for yourself which you will never forget.

Holes 1 and 2 are forgettable. Three is okay and then it begins. It loses its lustre at 11 and 12 but but they are both still good holes. 13 is a still a good hole although putting is a challenge. 14 is one of those par 5s where you are happy with a par. Getting onto the correct part of the green in 3 is the challenge and it is a difficult one. 16 is lovable and 17 and 18 are legend. Pebble is too dramatic and too good to go away from the top of the heap. The emotional factor is huge, mainly the walk up 8 and coming to within site of the green. No other site in golf can compare.

Enough.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Going back to the Doak scale (which should probably be published in each edition of this series) there is no doubt that Pebble is not to be missed under any circumstance. It is a must, in spite of the cost and bother to get and stay there. I have often said to those who think it is nuts to pay $400 or whatever to play there that I bet they have spent that amount on a dinner with clients or on your wife's birthday present. Worth that amount for a present for yourself which you will never forget.

Holes 1 and 2 are forgettable. Three is okay and then it begins. It loses its lustre at 11 and 12 but but they are both still good holes. 13 is a still a good hole although putting is a challenge. 14 is one of those par 5s where you are happy with a par. Getting onto the correct part of the green in 3 is the challenge and it is a difficult one. 16 is lovable and 17 and 18 are legend. Pebble is too dramatic and too good to go away from the top of the heap. The emotional factor is huge, mainly the walk up 8 and coming to within site of the green. No other site in golf can compare.

Enough.

I'd give Pebble a 9, taking all things into consideration, maybe TD will give us some indication why he did not score this a 10. For me as Bob said, the 1st, 11th and 12th are forgettable, i liked the 2nd but not the 3rd and in fairness I played the old 5th which I did not like. The great holes in order in my opinion are:18, 7, 8, 9, 10, 5*, 4, 16, 17, 2, 6, 14, 13, 15, 3, 11, 12, 1
* only seen on tv.
I think the setting, history and experience is awesome it is a must play.

[wsmorrison]

In my mind, no course that has several forgettable holes can be considered a 9 or a 10.  Some of you have mentioned five or six so-so holes.  I would add 17 into that mix as well.  It may be a famous hole, but in what way is it great a hole?  If I recall correctly, the green size has shrunk dramatically.  I think a full third of the golf course is merely average.  Not even the superb holes (6-9, 14, 16 and 18) on the golf course can make up for that.  That is why it I think it is a lot closer to a 7 than a 10.  

[ChipRoyce]

With a mixture of mediocre holes, solid holes and spectacular ones, I would give Pebble Beach no more than an 8 and could argue that it is really a 7 with some great views.  But the wind off the ocean helps out more so than the views.  Too bad the low artificial dunes cannot be returned.  This course is ranked too high on everybody's lists.  Tom Doak gave it a 9 and said if pressed he could consider it among the top 10 courses in the US.  Not for me, even with some outstanding small pitched greens.  Were they always this small?  Photos of 7 green over time would indicate that some of the greens may have shrunk or been remodeled.  It is been too long since I've played there, but does anyone that knows the course well think the greens have shrunk and if so, where?

Wayne;
I absolutely agree with your commentary above. The last time I brought up this topic, I was soundly flamed by many about the inspiring views, etc. On the merits of the course itself, I think it hovers between 7 and 8.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Chip.  I would certainly have backed you when you brought up this  matter in the past had I seen it.  I enjoyed playing Pebble Beach but always came away feeling that it was lacking overall greatness and it did not justify the prices charged.  I too have a tough time understanding how it gets the rankings it does.

[Mark_Fine]

I will not get into the fray, but if Pebble is only a 7 or so on the Doak scale, an awful lot of people (myself included) must be fooled by Pebble Beach for years and years to have rated it so highly.  Either this is a great example of how "subjective" the ratings can be or else it shows that that the people who do rate a course like Pebble that highly do not know what they are talking about.  Maybe many of us, Doak included don't have a clue  

[wsmorrison]

If I think Pebble Beach is "only "a 7 (which isn't bad at all) why do you think there is an issue of being fooled or not knowing what you are talking about?  A rating is subjective and there should be a diversity of opinion.  I am quite comfortable with disagreement on the rating of Pebble Beach and any other course.  I do not like to see rankings considered as some absolute scale and system.  With results like Pebble Beach and others, there is evidence of weaknesses in the process.

I wouldn't include Doak in any discussion of individuals not knowing what they are talking about when it comes to golf architecture and history.  Doak is clearly an expert on the subject and capable of determining a courses excellence and flaws in contrast to the overwhelming majority of those that engage in the activity.  Too many are not informed enough to make valid observations.  You can decide who falls into that category and who do not.  It wouldn't surprise me if 5% or less are truly capable.  Oh, and I would never count myself as one of the 5%.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

The way the Doak definitions are, I can see giving Pebble a 7.  Hell we've argued over the course ad nauseam in here, and some can't get over the "lesser" holes.  Fair enough, to each his own.  I gave it a 9, might even earn a 10, I just figured I can't give a 10 to every course we do here.

I just want to know who gave it a 5... now that person has some 'splainin to do.

 

[Craig Van Egmond]

While it may be true that Pebble is the 'better test' of golf, the reality is that Cypress Point is a leisurely 3.5 hour walk and Pebble is 6 hour slog of waiting on every shot.  I know which I prefer.  

Now, if my foursome is the only one on either course....

[Tom Huckaby]

While it may be true that Pebble is the 'better test' of golf, the reality is that Cypress Point is a leisurely 3.5 hour walk and Pebble is 6 hour slog of waiting on every shot.  I know which I prefer.  

Now, if my foursome is the only one on either course....

Craig - I played Pebble in damn near exactly that... my Dad and I, zero wait, 3.5 hours... on that day if it wasn't a 10, such things don't exist.  In fact I now want to go back and change my answer.  

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Points taken, but Doak and others must see a reason it is a 9 if not a 10.  Maybe that should say something, maybe not.  I put it in the same category in fact on my personal evaluation list, it is 10.  There are few courses I would fly 2500 miles or more to play and that is one of them.  The reason I would question a 7 is that I would have trouble listing all the 8's, 9's, and 10's that would be above it    It is all relative to how much one has seen and experienced, but a 7 is borderline top 100 if you've seen a good number of the great golf courses around the world.  All those 8's and above need to fit in there somewhere.  

Craig,
If your difference in rating is based on pace of play, you missed it.  If I got you a first off at Pebble on a sunny day, would that change your impression?  I would hope you'd agree that if all raters viewed courses in this light you could see how they would be very suspect.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck:

T'wasn't me, nor did I give  it a 10.

I figure you for an 8, maybe 9 if you're feeling generous.  5 is just cantankerous poll-manipulation, and I know that's not your style.

 

[ChipRoyce]

I will not get into the fray, but if Pebble is only a 7 or so on the Doak scale, an awful lot of people (myself included) must be fooled by Pebble Beach for years and years to have rated it so highly.  Either this is a great example of how "subjective" the ratings can be or else it shows that that the people who do rate a course like Pebble that highly do not know what they are talking about.  Maybe many of us, Doak included don't have a clue  

Mark;

I don't want to start a war here, but I'm not sure your comments are very fair. Its almost a form of GCA political correctness.

I absolutely respect Tom Doak and others who rate things differently, but the objective of GCA.com is to allow for a wide range of different views.

Just because this message isn't coming from Tom Paul or John Kavanaugh doesn't mean that it shouldn't be rated on the merits of the argument vs. how it conflicts with the conventional wisdom.

Yours golfingly (Peace, Golf and grog!)
Chip

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

How many 10s do you have on your personal list?  Doak's definition is that if you miss one hole you would miss something worth seeing.  I see far too many holes on this very good course that could easily be missed.  

I'll have to amend my score and say that, according to Tom's scale, I would consider Pebble Beach a low 8.  I could never consider it close to a 9 since Tom states that there are "no poor holes" on a 9.  I don't think I'd have a problem listing courses above Pebble Beach, and I've played far less courses than you have.  If you remember that this is not an objective nor scientific exercise, I think the rationale for some to question such its high ranking shouldn't be taken personally.

Tell me, Mark.  Are there or are there not poor holes at Pebble Beach?  Is it nearly perfect?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Mark,

         I did make mention that if we were the only ones on the course, which was a pace of play comment.  

         I assume that in the rating world that  you are rate things in a vacuum and all things are equal, but I don't live in that world, things like pace of play and cost matter to me.

         Both are in my top10.

[Bryan Izatt]

If rating it on the Doak scale I'd give it an 8.  No doubt it's a spectacular piece of property with some great holes and history.  But there are some mundane holes, as mentioned above, that could be missed without any loss.  Number 1 for example.  This is not to say it's not a top 10 or 20 course.  Just that it's not perfect and it doesn't fit Doak's definition of a 9.  On Doak's scale there may be no courses that are truly a 10.  Like all ratings though, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Perhaps the majority who rated it a ten could comment on how they see it fitting with Doak's definition of a 10.

[Tim Leahy]

If Pebble isn't a ten, then ten doesn't exist. Beauty, history, and challenge. Have played it twice twentyfive years apart and both times were perfection. It is the only course I would pay $400 to play, except Cypress if given a chance.

[Tom Huckaby]

If Pebble isn't a ten, then ten doesn't exist. Beauty, history, and challenge. Have played it twice twentyfive years apart and both times were perfection. It is the only course I would pay $400 to play, except Cypress if given a chance.

Now we're talking.  That's what I should have said.  I am now even more ashamed of my wussy 9 vote.

Thanks for the reality check, Tim.

TH

[ChipRoyce]

If Pebble isn't a ten, then ten doesn't exist. Beauty, history, and challenge. Have played it twice twentyfive years apart and both times were perfection. It is the only course I would pay $400 to play, except Cypress if given a chance.

Who's going to break the news to NGLA and the other courses that Doak rated as a 10?

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip - there is room for more than a few tens on this planet.