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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2007, 02:45:26 PM »
Tom Paul, the first thing that came to mind with your question was my golfing experience -- less and less these days, thank goodness -- with guys who either want to hit all of the "top" courses from the GD lists or who are happy with the run-of-the-mill and would not go out of the way to play certain courses just because they are infinitely more interesting.  So I wasn't sure what part of GCA you wanted to proselytize; but in my case, preaching involves convincing those golfers who don't give much thought to course architecture to look with greater appreciation at the architect's work, and to not look at which new driver will hit their ball farther than their brother-in-law's down the center of some bowling alley fairway.  But this stuff is old news.

Now when it comes to f&f, proselytize away; but as long as golf courses are primarily small or medium-sized businesses either geared toward the golfing public or private clubs that must make their members happy, and the public associates quality with lush green fairways, you obviously have your work cut out for you.  Perhaps your work is easier on the private side, though who wants to impress clients and friends with Hoylake-like conditions? ;)  So what is the ideal maintenance meld, then?   Perhaps you should formalize this idea and package it into bites that any lunkhead could understand and appreciate (including myself). :D

John Kavanaugh

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2007, 02:48:56 PM »
I guess I don't need a prosthetic brain because I have never met a golfer who prefers a wet course.

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2007, 03:49:36 PM »
"So what is the ideal maintenance meld, then?  Perhaps you should formalize this idea and package it into bites that any lunkhead could understand and appreciate (including myself).   :D

JamesM;

As of now the firm and fast maintenance meld seems to be panning out this way:

If a golf course has been maintained basically with over irrigated turf and they want to go to firm and fast as often as weather will allow they have to design a different maintenance program around it. And even if they figure out how to do that correctly it will probably take 2-4 years to recondition their agronomy if the soil structure will even allow it.

Next they have to realize what the best they can expect is in various weather conditions given their budget.

If the budget isn't high enough they can expect to be managing some dormant grass at best in some weather conditions with hopefully a fairly low degree of turf lose.

This kind of condition is what we call browning out. Some think it means the grass is dead. That is definitely not necessarily the case---dormant grass that is browned out will be green again about two days after a really good rain.

So that's what most clubs can expect at best with firm and fast conditions in some weather conditions.

Now there are some clubs who can maintain firm and fast conditions and not brown out. They never get much more than what I call that "light green sheen". This is the greens and fairways by the way.

Those clubs are the big budget clubs who have transitioned to a firm and fast maintenance program and they can do this because they have the bucks and the manpower to syringe, and massively if they have to at a moment's notice.

The reality is with low budget, medium budget and even big budget clubs that to manage firm and fast conditions requires a pretty high vigilance level and consequently a pretty high stress level on the part of maintenance. (I don't just mean stressing the grass which of course they are doing, I mean the stress on the maintenance people).

The reality is, unfortunately, it's a whole lot easier for maintenance to basically keep a golf course fairly wet so they don't have to worry about watching it like a hawk.

All they need to do is just turn the irrigation on for a time every day (when the course could be firm and fast) and just go home and relax and not worry about much.

Nothing is easy in life I guess and that applies to firm and fast too. For those reasons alone some who may want to consider it may not.

But my feeling is that just about any golfer who experiences the playability of really good firm and fast conditions will love it enough to begin to consider what the value of it is and what it will take to produce it as often as weather will allow.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2007, 05:33:15 PM »
TEPaul,

You should be advised that you can get into alot of trouble for
soliciting prostitution............... except in Nevada.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2007, 05:54:45 PM »
"The reality is, unfortunately, it's a whole lot easier for maintenance to basically keep a golf course fairly wet so they don't have to worry about watching it like a hawk.

All they need to do is just turn the irrigation on for a time every day (when the course could be firm and fast) and just go home and relax and not worry about much.'


Gee...if it were so easy!

TPaul...yes, and just as simplistically we could turn the water off and kill the grass and all lose our jobs...

I would suspect that in most of the east, and mid-west, keeping a course "fairly wet" will result in quite a bit of spraying for various disease....here in the arid west 10-13 inches of yearly precipitation does not go far....HOWEVER, all that said....there are lots of reasons for not "watching it like a hawk".....mostly related to budgets....
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Doug Ralston

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2007, 05:59:51 PM »
Well; I am certainly gonna keep raging on about the 'eclectic model' of golf course architecture theory. You guys do what you want. But remember, all your ideas are but an aspect of my model. Be envious!

Doug

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2007, 11:30:23 PM »
Reflecting a little more on the postitive or negative methodology of proselytizing, I can think of some solid examples of postitive.  That is when we have had GCA.com associates outings, like Kings Putter, Dixie, Buda, Ran's soire, and mini regional gatherings, etc.  Everyone of them that I have been to, one or more of our GCA.com nut cases brings a newbie friend from back home.  I have been trying to bring along some of my pals that never really talk or consider golf architecture, except when they have to suffer through one of my disertations.   Having the newbies observe the 2-3 days of constant design discussion and debate about matters and subjects they never hear anywhere else about all things related to comparitive golf design and maintanence meld issues, can only spread or proselytize "the word' in a positive manner, I think...  one convert at a time.  ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2007, 11:33:14 PM »
"eclectic model"?  

TEPaul is sitting in his lawyer's office as we type, determining if you have stolen the copywrite on his "big world theory". ;) ;D ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2007, 08:04:49 AM »
"TPaul...yes, and just as simplistically we could turn the water off and kill the grass and all lose our jobs..."

Craig:

Sometimes I really do wonder where you're coming from.

Do you deny it takes a lot more vigilance to maintain turf in a firm and fast and dry state (weather permitting) without significant turf lose then it does just keeping it more irrigated and softer?

Otherwise why are these high budget courses that are going to consistent firm and fast maintenance programs using syringing all the time? Why don't they just turn on the irrigation systems when the grass looks stressed and just forget about the man-power intensive syringing?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 08:07:39 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2007, 08:19:40 AM »
"My question is why would a club spend all that extra money to fight climatic conditions when we all know a deluge of rain could fall any day and essentially waste a ton of cash?  Surely it is best to work with nature and accept that there is a season for f&f and there is a season (and odd periods in between) where it is just not wise to chase f&f when the climate is not cooperative."

Sean:

Come on, what are you talking about? Spend all that money and waste a ton of cash??

What money? If a club goes to a firm and fast maintenance program when it doesn't rain they are simply trying to keep the course as dry as possible and the grass healthy even if that means some dormancy---eg NOT getting so dry it goes from dormancy to checkhing out (turf death and loss).

Why put water on turf in dry weather if it doesn't need it?  

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2007, 08:56:34 AM »
In short, no.

When one tries, he is not perceived as a zealot, but something much lower - a total bore.  

It's just not that important, and nobody cares how much you know, or to borrow some GCAspeak, that you "get it."  95% of the people don't want "it."

Quote
Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Doug Ralston

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2007, 08:59:08 AM »
R J Daley;

Eclecticism is a 'what works' concept. In psychology, an eclectic takes the best ideas related to the case from many other theoretical models [cognitive, deterministic, Fruedian etc] and molds them into a functioning plan of intervention. In politics, one might take ideas from capitalism and socialism, perhaps, to build an economic plan for a Country.

In golf architecture [according to the developing 'Ralston's' eclectic theory  ;)], one might search for the ideas best suited for a property involved.  :-*

For example, in those ugly sand hills of middle America, one might indeed find 'firm and fast' to be a useful, challenging, and fun design concept, and holes will reflect it.

But how would you do that on a mountainous property? No, it's 'air power' golf. Does that mean the architect could not build a course that is challenging, fun, and beautiful? Only if our architect is so straited by an already set theory that their imagination is symied. Certainly, that applies to no one here [sarcasm?].

Hey, I am NOT an architect; just a quirky golf course lover who imagines ideas every time he steps to the tee. Pay no attention if you find my ideas too undeveloped. I doubt I will ever actually do the work; it's just fun to visualize.

And I love the site. If I am often the 'foil' here, so much better for the fun.

Doug

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2007, 10:13:19 AM »
Tpaul..where I'm coming from is here....course A is maintained to enhance their poa annua. They water, they use growth regulators on the fairways, mow down to about .25... they fertilize the greens every other week..use growth regulators on the greens every other week...the course is green, soft, wet..being in the arid west, disease isn't a big problem.....

Course B waters every night when it gets hot...lots of water, but drainage is good...the course never really feels wet unless it rains on top of the irrigation, but generally the super see's the rain coming and shuts down or idles back the irrigation...no growth regulators at all are used and the greens are fertilized once a month....

Course A requires a lot of resources...course B does not....hmmm...but isn't course B closer to playing firm and fast?

TPaul...The costs are associated directly to what you are trying to accomplish....green and wet or firm and fast...neither are cheap...it costs lots of money to keep a course green and wet and in 'championship" condition.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 10:23:21 AM »
"Tpaul..where I'm coming from is here....course A is maintained to enhance their poa annua. They water, they use growth regulators on the fairways, mow down to about .25... they fertilize the greens every other week..use growth regulators on the greens every other week...the course is green, soft, wet.."

Craig:

If course A is maintained green soft and wet they aren't trying to get into a firm and fast maintenance and playability program, are they?

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2007, 10:32:32 AM »
Never said they were and that isn't the point.

Firm and fast conditions, once established, should cost less, not more than maintaining a green and lush course.

Imputs should be reduced, mowing should be reduced, irrigation costs should be reduced. Labor for hand water would be greater and the price politically, and in $$$, of getting f&f established are greater.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2007, 11:00:21 AM »
Craig:

Then what is the point?

I realize you didn't want this thread to get into a discussion of firm and fast but it did anyway.

James Morgan asked me something about it in the context of what I call the Ideal Maintenance Meld which is basically a playability goal that then looks at various maintenance practices which obviously can be very different given various regions, soil makeup, rainfall etc to achieve that firm and fast playability goal.

I don't know whether you responded to me as a result of my answer to James Morgan or not but that was about the subject of firm and fast playing conditions and maintenance practices to acheive it which again certainly can be very different given various regions etc, etc.

Your course A above is not into a firm and fast maintenance program so it's not comparing apples to apples.

And I agree, a firm and fast maintenance program and playability probably should cost less. However, all that can change bigtime if the club wants both really firm and fast playing conditions and little to no browning out.

That was basically my point to James Morgan in post #27.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 11:03:19 AM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2007, 01:02:57 PM »
Tpaul...you said green and wet was easy, just let the irrigation rip and sit back, there was little need to watch it like a hawk...

I was merely pointing out that there`are substaintial costs to green, soft and wet...and one such cost is the constant diligance for disease associated with those conditions....

If there is nothing inexpensive and easy about green, wet and soft why do so many courses embrace it? Because the membership has determined that it is the Ideal Maintinance Meld for their course....

Thus we are back to the theme of your post..."should we try to actively proselytize"
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2007, 01:35:07 PM »
"Tpaul...you said green and wet was easy, just let the irrigation rip and sit back, there was little need to watch it like a hawk..."

Craig:

Well, that's an interesting point and no doubt true if a course is over saturated all the time from excessive irrigation.

"I was merely pointing out that there`are substaintial costs to green, soft and wet...and one such cost is the constant diligance for disease associated with those conditions...."

I realize that's true particularly if courses are too wet most all the time. That's just beautiful, isn't it? I mean really, how stupid can American courses and clubs get if that's what they're doing---over-irrigating so much, fertilizing, retarding, mowing excessively low, all geared towards disease?

"If there is nothing inexpensive and easy about green, wet and soft why do so many courses embrace it? Because the membership has determined that it is the Ideal Maintinance Meld for their course...."

That's probably the best question yet! Why indeed do so many embrace lush green wet and soft turf all the time with all the problems you just mentioned that can go with it? My feeling is simply because they just don't know any better. And why don't they know any better? Well, we sure did start to lose the ground game in America by over saturating golf courses sometime after WW2. We sure do over irrigate and fertilize the shit out of our turf over here. We fertilize it, then we slap growth retardants on it, we cut it too within an inch of its life and then practically drown it, then apply one chemical remediation after another to it.

Why indeed to we do all that so much over here? If you ask me it's because of the massive scam known as the American agronomic industry and its ancillary support mechanisms---irrigation, fertilizer, retardants, all forms of chemical applications, super sophisticated mowing equipment, and then drown the shit out of it!

Is it any wonder I've been calling American agronomy of this type the "emergency ward" for a few years now? The real irony is that so many Americans actually think grass that looks that lush and soft and wet looks good and is heathy. It isn't. But do you think the American agronomy industry is going to admit that anytime soon? Do you think they're willing to admit that grass that's lightish green and drier, deeper rooted or even browned a bit is healthier? I wouldn't hold my breath that they'll admit that anytime soon unless they want to consider going out of business.

"Thus we are back to the theme of your post..."should we try to actively proselytize."

Yes we are, and that's precisely why I think we should try to convince as many as possible to consider drier and firmer and faster turf that is less dependent on all that crap mentioned above.

I say get American agronomy out of the "emergency ward".

It'll be healthier in the end and it will play a whole lot better. For starters we will get the other half of the game of golf back again after all these decades in America when it basically didn't exist.

Let our American agronomy get reacclimated to the ways of Nature better and it obviously will cost less in the end. But when something costs less it obviously isn't good for somebody's business, is it?  ;)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 01:41:45 PM by TEPaul »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2007, 01:57:38 PM »
"I say get American agronomy out of the "emergency ward"."

You will stand just about as good a chance getting special interest and big money out of politics...

The symbiosis that has been established will not let that happen....and it goes beyond the agronomy business.

For example, the main stream golf magazines are not interested in having instruction on hitting the ball shorter or perfecting the ground game (except for the occasional pitch and run lesson),they are not interested in pictures of famous golf courses with dormant grass, and the resorts that run ads in these magazines are not interested in promoting anything less than a green, lush, "beautiful" golf course.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2007, 03:31:18 PM »
Craig:

I don't believe that any reasonable mind on here or elsewhere is going to maintain that this kind of thing (a return to dedicated firm and fast playability through applied maintenance practices) is ever going to sweep the nation.

In my opinion, that will never happen and that's why I believe in my "Big World" theory. But this kind of thing is going to get a far larger slice of the pie than than in the last fifty years.

If you actually think the agronomic industry and something like Golf Digest is going to put a total stop to it happening and happening more you really are dreaming.

First of all it already has happened on a pretty good number of the best golf courses in America and it will inevitably continue until it probably will be a significant enough slice of the pie someday---maybe up to something like 20%.

And if you think some of these clubs like Merion, NGLA, Shinnecock, Aronimink, Oakmont, Pine Valley, HVGC and numerous others of that ilk are going to keep their courses soft and wet to suit the American agronomy industry or Golf Digest you are really dreaming.

They're going to do what they want to do and they are doing that with firm and fast playability and maintenance practices and I'm quite sure they don't give one flying f... what the American agronomy industry or Golf Digest thinks about it.


Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2007, 03:42:44 PM »
TEPaul and Craig Sweet,

I disagree with both of you. I want firm and fast, and I'm not going to syringe to get what I want. I'm going to water with my irrigation heads and do a decent job of irrigating(not every night, of course), then let nature run its course. I've learned a lot about taking grass from its wussy condition to a hardened off condition by sticking my neck out and doing it....the type of program that scares Craig to death.

Hand watering only encourages shallow rooting, and shallow rooted grasses prevail when that happens. Tom, have any of those hand watered, big budget clubs transitioned out poa in favor of more durable bentgrass? I would be sceptical if their main mode of irrigation is syringing.

Of course, I could be wrong.......but I don't think so in this case.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2007, 05:28:05 PM »
 8)

TEP YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!

What do practices at Merion, NGLA, Shinnecock, Aronimink, Oakmont, Pine Valley, HVGC have to do with the overwhelming majority of public golf in the USA???   Isn't that a little too small unique east coast centric set of examples to base proselytizing to the greater distribution of courses in the USA?

I think Joe's on to something practical, eclectic if you will something that can lead folks by example..

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Kyle Harris

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2007, 05:31:39 PM »
TEPaul and Craig Sweet,

I disagree with both of you. I want firm and fast, and I'm not going to syringe to get what I want. I'm going to water with my irrigation heads and do a decent job of irrigating(not every night, of course), then let nature run its course. I've learned a lot about taking grass from its wussy condition to a hardened off condition by sticking my neck out and doing it....the type of program that scares Craig to death.

Hand watering only encourages shallow rooting, and shallow rooted grasses prevail when that happens. Tom, have any of those hand watered, big budget clubs transitioned out poa in favor of more durable bentgrass? I would be sceptical if their main mode of irrigation is syringing.

Of course, I could be wrong.......but I don't think so in this case.

Joe

Joe,

We had 9-12 inch roots at HVCC and the only time water touched our greens from June to August was through a hose nozzle. Outside of pesticide and fertilizer applications that required watering in.

Greens probably average 70% Bent (with some old velvet there too).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 05:32:57 PM by Kyle Harris »

Peter Pallotta

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2007, 06:09:31 PM »
I really appreciate getting/learning some of the details and nuance from those here who know, but nothing yet has changed my qualified "yes".

There are many ways to proselytize, and many POVs to proselytize on behalf of; and despite the word's negative connotation, it really just means promoting what one believes good and useful to others, through words and deeds.

Wherever you stand on the fast and firm question/spectrum, there are those proselytizing in words and deeds for some 'position' along that spectrum.

There's nothing wrong with promoting one particular point of view, and in fact it's absolutely neccesary if you'd like that point of view to stand even a chance of winning out in the marketplace of ideas, and in the world.

Peter    
(edit: by the way, if someone was made healthier by a natural remedy, and was promoting its use on the internet but gaining nothing by that promotion except satisfaction at helping others, I might be more inclined to believe him/her than I would an opposing POV coming from a drug company executive, who, even if he was good and wise and true is surely being influenced by the potential profits involved)  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 06:17:11 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Should we try to actively proselytize.....
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2007, 07:00:05 PM »
Craig and Joe:

You guys are the supers, not me. I'm just relaying what I hear from supers around here and my own super at GMGC. What I think I've learned in other words. Maybe I'm wrong--maybe they're wrong but somehow they seem to be producing some good firm and fast playability and maintenance programs.

They must be doing something right. I'll even tell you who it is I talk to here and there. Sawicki (GMGC), Shaeffer (Merion), Goesslin (Aronimink), May (Manny's), Anderson (HVGC), Michaud (Shinnecock), Salinetti (NGLA), Burrows (New Haven), Easter (Totteridge), Jones (Friar's), Eiffert (Creek), Spear (Piping), Christian (PV), Zontek (USGA), Oates (USGA) etc, etc.

Hand watering?

I guess terms need to be defined. I've been told syringing (if that's what you mean by hand watering) really isn't irrigating or shouldn't be. It's cooling. They say if the hose drops below parallel it's irrigating---if it doesn't it's syringing. I guess when the grass needs irrigating in dry stress conditions it will tell you pretty clear.

But I like your style Joe---it sounds like you do what it takes to produce as much firm and fast playability as you can.

I don't know how to do it from the maintenance side like you guys do and those guys listed do but I sure do know how to define what I consider the ideal to be from the playability side.

From there I just talk it through with supers and define it completely and depending on where they are and what kind of soil make-up and course they have they just basically go through all the playability components and say;  "Can Do, No Can Do and here's exactly why, or Can Do and here's what it will take and what it will cost."

What could be better than that? It's as close to total understanding all the way around from playability to maintenance practices to acheive a highly defined playability goal as it can get, in my opinion.

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