[Jerry Kluger]

What do you guys think of Gold Canyon - Dinosaur - I've heard a great deal of positives from friends - your thoughts please.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Hold the phone partner.

I didn't demean -- I simply attempted to provide a bit of perspective because I have played the courses in question and frankly don't see why there is all this hoopla connected to the C&C layout at We-Ko-Pa. The gushing is getting a bit much. I said it before -- there are those on this site who simply believe that if "x" preferred archie does something then automatically it's a home run design -- no matter if other more compelling info is then presented.

Hey look, if you want to operate in a tunnel -- then knock yourself out.

I simply said it's my opinion -- got it.

I've been to the Valley of the Sun for well over 25 years -- do you think I just went there yesterday? I've made it a point to play the key courses -- not just once but in return visits as well. I have a fairly good sense of what I like for golf course design and the courses I favor run the gambit from different terrains, styles and presentations, to name just three. People are free to disagree but since this is a public site and robust comments should flow back and forth I intend to share my opinions. You are free to disgard them as I am more than willing to do likewise when I feel differently.

The junkies who cannot get enough of anything tied to the "preferred archie syndrome" -- the piped piper types who seem to follow like zombies with anything along this line are welcome to knock themselves out with this method.

When you say "stop it" -- how bout the peanut gallery types on this site open their minds to the sheer possibility that others on this site may have a bit more info on what's available? That these same folks can possibly steer them to choices which don't have the "preferred archies syndrome" that seems to grab those who fail to think outside the box.

Ryan, grow the freak up. I can provide my opinions and people can disagree. I'm not interested in the juvenile pissing contest you wish to explore. But I sure as hell am not going to be drinking the pro forma kool-aid that some on this site prefer.

Last item -- be sure to say the same thing about a punching bag when others on this site take issue with the architects and names of courses I have provided that get little attention because they are not deemed to be on the "preferred listing."

[Ryan Farrow]

Matt I appreciate your words about Vista Verde and I will be sure to check it out as soon as I have the time. That does not discount the fact that you made it a point to bash not only the courses but anyone who recommended them. You blindly labeled these people zombies (your words, not mine). I’m not going to deny there is a bias towards certain architects but that is life. I would just be more careful about labeling people who you frankly don't know.

[Doug Wright]

What do you guys think of Gold Canyon - Dinosaur - I've heard a great deal of positives from friends - your thoughts please.

Jerry,

I played Gold Canyon-Dinosaur Mtn. last month the day before I played We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. I liked Dinosaur Mtn. a lot. There is quite a lot of elevation change throughout the layout, most of which is used to provide downhill tee shots that are a bit repetitive. A number of excellent greens, mainly on the large side with a lot of rolls. Decent/adequate width but not like Saguaro. The bunkering was not memorable (maybe I missed them all..). I particularly liked greens on the the par 3 2d and 14th, which presented a lot of challenge. Also the par 3 10th green was about 75 yards long. The drivable 15th was a really good short par 4. The finishing two holes were not up to snuff IMO, particularly 18, which played as a 5 wood/wedge without much interest on either shot.

I preferred Saguaro to Dinosaur Mtn. I place Dinosaur Mountain in the category of the Raven at Verrado and Sunridge Canyon--a decent course that's worth a visit while in the Valley of the Sun.

[Jason Topp]

I agree that the course is probably is too wide given that there usually is not much wind at the site and the terrain is by no means dramatic.  

Jason,

"Not much wind at the site"? Are you sure? Maybe I was unlucky when I played there in January because it was plenty windy and without the width it would have been unplayable. My sense was that it is windy there quite a bit; maybe others know if that's true.

I generally think of the area as not windy, but the climate data for Mesa I looked at showed an average wind speed of 9-10 miles per hour compared to a wind speed at North Platte, NE of 10-12.  Maybe there isn't actually that much difference but it sure has seemed to me that wind is pretty rare in Arizona.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jason depending on what time of the day and where you are at the wind can get pretty brutal in Arizona. When I played talking stick north gusts had to be around 20-25 mph. Late in the day ASU Karsten can get a really brutal west to east wind.

[Jason Topp]

Thanks Ryan.  I went to ASU in the 80's and my parents have lived in Tucson most of my adult life and it has seemed to me that around 25-50% of the time I played in little or no wind.  

In the Midwest, such days are extremely rare.  

[Andy Troeger]

What do you guys think of Gold Canyon - Dinosaur - I've heard a great deal of positives from friends - your thoughts please.

Jerry,

I played Gold Canyon-Dinosaur Mtn. last month the day before I played We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. I liked Dinosaur Mtn. a lot. There is quite a lot of elevation change throughout the layout, most of which is used to provide downhill tee shots that are a bit repetitive. A number of excellent greens, mainly on the large side with a lot of rolls. Decent/adequate width but not like Saguaro. The bunkering was not memorable (maybe I missed them all..). I particularly liked greens on the the par 3 2d and 14th, which presented a lot of challenge. Also the par 3 10th green was about 75 yards long. The drivable 15th was a really good short par 4. The finishing two holes were not up to snuff IMO, particularly 18, which played as a 5 wood/wedge without much interest on either shot.

I preferred Saguaro to Dinosaur Mtn. I place Dinosaur Mountain in the category of the Raven at Verrado and Sunridge Canyon--a decent course that's worth a visit while in the Valley of the Sun.

I would pretty well second this from my memory of GCDM a few years ago. The first few holes were really amazing visually, but the last 2-3 were a letdown at the end.

From my point, Vista Verde is the best public I've played in AZ, and GCDM is the most beautiful. Neither do bad in the other categories either.

[rjsimper]

When did Vista Verde open for play (late last year?) and how many here have played it?  I find it interesting that there appears to be this sudden groundswell of support for Vista Verde...especially the immediate elevation of it to "tops in Scottsdale Public Golf" status.

This is in no way an endorsement or condemnation of the course, as I have said several times I have never even seen it...but I just feel like I would have seen more discussion about this hot-shot newcomer prior to Matt's thread on it the other day, as I tend to keep up with the AZ threads.

[Doug Wright]

When did Vista Verde open for play (late last year?) and how many here have played it?  I find it interesting that there appears to be this sudden groundswell of support for Vista Verde...especially the immediate elevation of it to "tops in Scottsdale Public Golf" status.

This is in no way an endorsement or condemnation of the course, as I have said several times I have never even seen it...but I just feel like I would have seen more discussion about this hot-shot newcomer prior to Matt's thread on it the other day, as I tend to keep up with the AZ threads.

Ryan I think Vista Verde opened about a year ago. I hadn't heard about it either until just before my quick trip to the Valley of the Sun last month but it was too late/not enough time to get there then. I'm booked there for February 21.

I think it's flying under the radar so far with no website or clubhouse etc. A real soft opening perhaps till they get more infrastructure? Of course the billboard that Matt Ward's placed on it here (and in upcoming Jersey Golfer spreads??) may change that...

[John Kavanaugh]

When did Vista Verde open for play (late last year?) and how many here have played it?  I find it interesting that there appears to be this sudden groundswell of support for Vista Verde...especially the immediate elevation of it to "tops in Scottsdale Public Golf" status.

This is in no way an endorsement or condemnation of the course, as I have said several times I have never even seen it...but I just feel like I would have seen more discussion about this hot-shot newcomer prior to Matt's thread on it the other day, as I tend to keep up with the AZ threads.

Ken Kavanaugh has been designing courses on his own for more than twenty years now so lets not dub him the newest overnight sensation.

A link:  http://www.kenkavanaugh.com/main.html

[Andy Troeger]

At least for my part, I keep saying Vista Verde is the best public course in AZ that "I've played." My experience is certainly limited in that regard.

For what it's worth and as a shameless (but accurate in that it is my honest opinion) plug for my new home state, I think New Mexico has two public courses that beat anything I've played in AZ (again limiting experience) in Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa.

[rjsimper]

When did Vista Verde open for play (late last year?) and how many here have played it?  I find it interesting that there appears to be this sudden groundswell of support for Vista Verde...especially the immediate elevation of it to "tops in Scottsdale Public Golf" status.

This is in no way an endorsement or condemnation of the course, as I have said several times I have never even seen it...but I just feel like I would have seen more discussion about this hot-shot newcomer prior to Matt's thread on it the other day, as I tend to keep up with the AZ threads.

Ken Kavanaugh has been designing courses on his own for more than twenty years now so lets not dub him the newest overnight sensation.

A link:  http://www.kenkavanaugh.com/main.html

JK - You misunderstood.  I'm not dubbing Ken himself as the overnight sensation...rather Vista Verde as the suddenly vogue recommendation for Scottsdale-bound GCAers seeking Public golf.  I'm just surprised that it seems to have opened with so little fanfare that many here were unaware of its existence...even for those familiar with Ken Kavanaugh.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Thanks for the plug -- be most interested in your read on Vista Verde when you play it.

Ryan:

Again -- try to read what I wrote -- not what you infer.

I simply said that there are blind types here on GCA who have a very constricted view on what is superior design -- there are also folks who follow in lockstep when certain names are mentioned -- there is also a tendency for people to not put any credence behind people who have less of a marquee value.

I only pointed out a perspective from my countless visits to the area taking in over 25 years. People are more than free to disagree but I stand by what I originally said -- too often there is a rush to proclaim a "preferred archies" work as superior when often times it's the past record that is used to judge the current work under review.

I never said Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa is not a fine course -- I did say that those elevating it to the tier of what C & C have previously done is a bit much and that for people to proclaim it belongs in the top tier with other nationwide revered public courses is also a big time stretch since I have named a few local Valley of the Sun public courses that I see as being better than it.

The zombies I referred to are people on this site -- I hope you are not one of them -- who only recognize design greatness when it comes from the very tiny gathering of preferred names. I have been an advocate for different layouts and architects whose work often flies well below the radar screen. Ken Kavanaugh's work at Vista Verde is indeed a powerful statement and one that needs to be played when in the area.

When you say I should not label people -- keep in mind you were very specific in labeling me in a certain manner. You don't know me either and frankly don't know the type of homework I have done in reviewing the courses that are within the immediate area under question.

I'll be interested when you do in fact play them. I give you credit for the desire to keep an open mind. That's more than some can say on this site.

[rjsimper]

Ryan:

Again -- try to read what I wrote -- not what you infer.

I was just preparing a huge "Where the heck did you come up with any of these statements I supposedly made?" response and then realized that you were addressing a different Ryan.  I thought I was losing my marbles.

Matt I am still interested to hear whether you prefer WKP-S or TS-N when considered only against one another...

[Jay Flemma]

If you have three days:

We-ko-pa. Apache Stronghold, TSN

If more:

Troon Pinnacle, Boulders S, Sedona, Ventana Canyon Mtn, Greyhawk talon

[John Kavanaugh]

If you have three days:

We-ko-pa. Apache Stronghold, TSN

If more:

Troon Pinnacle, Boulders S, Sedona, Ventana Canyon Mtn, Greyhawk talon

Globe is 80 miles away and Tuscon is 120.  At the time I played Ventana Canyon Mtn it was private.  Why not just tell the guy to play the Red Lawrence course.

[rjsimper]

If you have three days:

Nick has just one day.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan S:

I say right now Saguaro is the better of the two choices when TSN is thrown into the mixture. However, to be fair, I have to see an dplay Saguaro when the turf conditions are much firmer and faster than they were when I played there about two weeks ago.

Vista Verde is still the play for anyone who wants a solid design, more than fair price when compared to the others in the immediate neighborhood and an incomparable location that ties the desert motif into a tour de force style.

[Jim Dawson]

Has anyone been to Apache Stronghold in late 2006 or in 2007?
If so, what kind of shape is it in.
Played three times last year and I am taking a group of 8 to Phoenix in April and what to put it on our play list.
Thanks,
JD

[Doug Wright]

I'm about to pull the trigger on a quick trip next Monday from the frozen Denver tundra to the Valley of the Sun and would like thoughts on which course to see this time down. Courses that I haven't seen that I'm thinking of playing are Wigwam Gold, Trilogy at Vistancia or Longbow. Would appreciate any thoughts on these three or others not listed below.

For reference I've played each of the following: both We-Ko-Pa courses, Vista Verde, the Talking Stick courses, Biltmore Adobe, Dinosaur Mtn Gold Canyon, Sunridge Canyon, Whirlwind, Raven at Verrado, and like them all more or less but want to try a new venue this trip.

Thanks.  

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, I played Wigwam Gold two years ago after Forrest Richardson finished the renovation work.  It is definitely worth playing, and a very easy walk - dead flat and relatively early RTJ layout.   I think you will enjoy it.

[Dave Givnish]

Nick -

Couple of things - make sure that VV is open.  They have been doing some infrastructure work on the development down there, and I'm not sure if that is affecting play.  Second, what weekend are you coming?  The FBR and the Super Bowl are in two weeks.  It might be tough to get on a course that weekend.

I haven't played VV yet.  It's a bit of a drive to get there and there is a real chance of frost delays for the next couple of weeks.  Don't plan on getting 36 in if you play there.

The new course at We-ko-pa is easy to walk.  I'd go that route and take a speed cart.  Cart-path only out here is a pain in the butt.

I played Grayhawk Raptor a few weeks ago.  The course is in very good shape, even if it is cart-path only.  The new greens have grown in well.  Let me know if you want to try there as they have a $95 email special now. I'll forward the email to you if I get it.  Sorry, Jay, I wouldn't pay to play Talon.

I would consider Boulders South and Talking Stick as well. I prefer playing the South course at TS as the play seems to move more quickly.

[Doug Wright]

Nick -

Couple of things - make sure that VV is open.  They have been doing some infrastructure work on the development down there, and I'm not sure if that is affecting play.  Second, what weekend are you coming?  The FBR and the Super Bowl are in two weeks.  It might be tough to get on a course that weekend.

I haven't played VV yet.  It's a bit of a drive to get there and there is a real chance of frost delays for the next couple of weeks.  Don't plan on getting 36 in if you play there.

The new course at We-ko-pa is easy to walk.  I'd go that route and take a speed cart.  Cart-path only out here is a pain in the butt.

I played Grayhawk Raptor a few weeks ago.  The course is in very good shape, even if it is cart-path only.  The new greens have grown in well.  Let me know if you want to try there as they have a $95 email special now. I'll forward the email to you if I get it.  Sorry, Jay, I wouldn't pay to play Talon.

I would consider Boulders South and Talking Stick as well. I prefer playing the South course at TS as the play seems to move more quickly.

Dave,

Nick started this thread a year ago--I reprised it today because I'm planning to come down there next Monday. Thanks for any thoughts on this:

I'm about to pull the trigger on a quick trip next Monday from the frozen Denver tundra to the Valley of the Sun and would like thoughts on which course to see this time down. Courses that I haven't seen that I'm thinking of playing are Wigwam Gold, Trilogy at Vistancia or Longbow. Would appreciate any thoughts on these three or others not listed below.

For reference I've played each of the following: both We-Ko-Pa courses, Vista Verde, the Talking Stick courses, Biltmore Adobe, Dinosaur Mtn Gold Canyon, Sunridge Canyon, Whirlwind, Raven at Verrado, and like them all more or less but want to try a new venue this trip.

Thanks.  

Thanks for your input on Wigwam Bill.

[Tom Yost]

I know Doug wasn't asking about Vista Verde but just to pass along a general FYI - it is now open Thurs-Sun at a rate of $135. They are still working the infrastructure build out and no clubhouse yet.

Info and reservations through the Tonto Verde Golf shop @ (480) 471-2710


Tom

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