What Influenced Bobby Jones?

[Peter Pallotta]

What courses would Bobby Jones have known/played by 1931 that would've most shaped his thinking on the design and playing characteristics of Augusta National (if we can assume that it didn't all come from Alistair Mackenzie)?  
 
He helped pick a piece of property that was inland, and fairly hilly, and spoke about wanting a members course where bogies were easy to get if frankly sought, pars the result of standard good play, and birdies difficult to come by except on par 5s.  Where did those ideas come from?
 
It seems to me that none of the 4 Grand Slam courses he'd most recently experienced could, on their own, account for that type of course. (Am I wrong on that?)  

In short, what were some of Augusta's antecedents in the US or the UK, at least in Bobby Jones' eyes?
 
Thanks
 

[TEPaul]

Peter:

Apparently, according to Bob Jones lore the golf course that got his attention over all others was TOC. And this was after something far less than a stellar start or appreciation of it the first time or two he competed on it. It is all capped off by his receiving of the keys to the city and his speech (perhaps in the 1950s or 1960s) that if he had one course to play, this would be it.....

Augusta's course is supposedly the basic strategic import of TOC in a fruit orchard in Georgia.

On this thread you will be hearing from Bob Crosby who is going to tell you far more about Jones and what infuenced him than this.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE, thanks. I'd heard about Jones' particular appreciation for TOC, but that only added to my confusion: how/why did Jones make the leap from sea-side links to a Georgia fruit orchard?

What I mean is, I can understand him importing the strategy from TOC, but I can't understand how he 'saw' that it could be laid over a hilly, inland course. I thought there must've been some intermediate steps/courses he was thinking of.

Peter  

[Bill_McBride]

Bob Jones went out to California in 1929 to play in the U.S. Amateur at Pebble Beach and was unexpectedly knocked out in the first round of match play.  With time on his hands, he played the new Cypress Point course and in an exhibition at the opening of Pasatiempo in Santa Cruz.  Both courses were designed by Alister MacKenzie.  Jones also was familiar with MacKenzie's experience with and knowledge of The Old Course at St Andrews.  As a result of all this, Jones hired MacKenzie to design Augusta National's golf course the next year.

Augusta National was designed to play like a links course - no rough, strategic angles into wildly contoured greens.

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

Peter,

Your question reminds me two articles on GolfOnline :

http://tinyurl.com/23h6d7

http://tinyurl.com/yszjfv

Hope it helps.  

Seb

[Phil_the_Author]

So Bill, is it your inderstanding that Mr. Jones got the idea of a golf course without rough from playing Cypress?

Also, I thought that Jones had been friends with McKenzie earlier than that and that he understood that he wanted to build a course with him in the future at least as early as 1927. I am hoping that the person who shared with me a few months ago will chime in.

[cary lichtenstein]

Peachtree is Jones course in Atlanta. He hired Robert Trent Jones to design it, it has a very similiar "feeling and look" as Augusta.

Also, I think Sage Valley also has a similiar feeling and look to Augusta, only 16 miles away and designed by Tom Fazio.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks all.

The Old Course, Pebble, Cypress...and then a hilly, fruit farm in the middle of Georgia.  

Was Augusta the first course in the U.S. to transfer the strategies of TOC to a parkland/inland setting?

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

So Bill, is it your inderstanding that Mr. Jones got the idea of a golf course without rough from playing Cypress?

Not at all.  That came from the Old Course.  Wide, wide fairways with strategic angles and options galore.

Also, I thought that Jones had been friends with McKenzie earlier than that and that he understood that he wanted to build a course with him in the future at least as early as 1927. I am hoping that the person who shared with me a few months ago will chime in.

I don't know about that.  One of us should probably buy a copy of Tom Doak's biography of the Good Doctor!  I've been trying but Amazon never seems to have it in stock, and I sent a copy I bought to a friend in England.

[BCrosby]

A couple of things -

- Jones knew Mack before 1929. It might have been as early as 1926 (Walker Cup/TOC) but certainly by '27 (Open/TOC). By the time they saw each other in California, they were already friends. See several comments in SofSA. There are also old OB Keeler articles that take the relationship back that far.

- One of the linked articles above is correct. Pasa had a much more direct bearing on the ANGC design than did Cypress. Which makes sense. Cypress is a rocky, seaside course that has little in common with the inland course Jones had in mind.

- Why Augusta and not a seaside locale? The short answer is that it was near home but not home.

- Jones said little about US courses. I'm not sure what you can infer from that. Having played PVGC, Merion and any number of the iconic Eastern seaboard courses, Jones had no comment. (Though when he gave his favorite holes in '38, he did pick some holes from those courses.) OTOH, it is clear that when he liked a course he did not hesitate to say so.  Jones did like Ross. He grew up on a Ross course (sort of). As late as 1931 (things had already gotten off the ground at ANGC with MacK) he was raving about the Hill Course and the Forest Hills courses in Augusta, both Ross courses.

- For Jones (as for MacK) the standard against which all gca was measrued was TOC. MacK and Jones mention a couple of holes from other UK courses as being the origins of a couple of holes at ANGC, but mostly it was TOC.

- Self serving statements from RTJ and the club notwithstanding, there is almost nothing at P'tree that reminds me of TOC. P'tree is an important course in the history of gca, but not because it does a good job of replicating features at TOC.

- I have my own theory about why Jones picked MacK for ANGC. It is not based any irrefutable facts I've discovered. I don't think there are any. But a couple of things are clear. From the get-go, there was no question that MacK was to be the architect. It was purely Jones' choice, not Roberts', who did not seem to know much about MacK. There were no interviews, no call for resumes or proposals - it was always Mack. Which suggests that Mack had made an enormous impression on Jones, a much deeper impression than would be suggested by a couple of brief meetings over the years.  


Bob  

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob
thanks very much.

Is it then right to say that Bobby Jones saw that this fruit farm had the 'bones' for a course that could play like TOC?

If so, that seems remarkable to me.

Peter

[BCrosby]

The land on which ANGC sits does not scream TOC at you. It is very hilly in places. But if you have determined that your new club is going to be in Augusta, almost any site you pick will be hilly. It's a hilly area.

Like the selection of most sites for golf courses, it was chosen for a combination of reasons, not all of them design reasons.

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Bob - I think I understand your point.

But if I'm reading all the comments right, other than Pasa there weren't any U.S. antecedents to Augusta's "The-Old Course-but-Inland/Parkland" design philosophy.

If so, does that make Augusta the precedent for American inland courses that strive to have the strategic options of TOC?

Peter

[JESII]

Bob,

That post #9 is great, thanks.

Peter,

Clearly you have the best guy in the conversation with BCrosby. Good thread topic.


Bob again,

Your last sentence in that post #9 rings false to me. Of course I have no evidence about the length or depth of a relationship between MacKenzie and Jones, but I firmly believe first impressions are very important and almost always determine the course of the future of a relationship. In that light, there is no reason for me to believe they had spent considerable time together other than what has been cited.

[JESII]

Here is a question I have always kicked around about comparing a hilly course like Augusta to a seaside links course like St. Andrews (neither of which have I played), is there any way to equate the effects wind has on a ball to the hillside effect on a ball? Uphill equalling into the wind...ball below feet equalling left-to-right wind (for righties) etc...

[BCrosby]

But if I'm reading all the comments right, other than Pasa there weren't any U.S. antecedents to Augusta's "The-Old Course-but-Inland/Parkland" design philosophy.

If so, does that make Augusta the precedent for American inland courses that strive to have the strategic options of TOC?

No. That's too strong a claim. There are any number of courses in the US that strove to use strategic aspects of TOC. MacD's Road Hole and Eden Hole templates are only the most well-known examples. Virtually every great architect has claimed at one point or another that he borrowed from TOC. The success of that borrowing is clearer with some than with others. But nonetheless, almost everyone likes to claim an affiliation.

What they did borrow from TOC was what made ANGC a radically new kind of golf course. But I gotta run meet a client for lunch. Later.
 
Bob

[BCrosby]

Sully -

I think you misread me. I did not suggest they spent a lot of time together. They didn't. Which makes Jones' early conviction that MacK was his guy all the more interesting.

Bob

[JESII]

Gotcha! Agreed.

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, I had always heard that the Cypress Point and Pasatiempo experiences were what tipped the ANGC decision away from Ross toward MacKenzie.  However, I'm sure Jones and MacKenzie met at St Andrews at some point before 1929, and certainly there was Dr. MacK's wonderful plan of the Old Course for Jones to study.

I've got a copy on my office wall right now, there is no more interesting plan in golf.

[Glenn Spencer]

I have only walked Merion and never been to Augusta, but if Jones' first national championship was at Merion and he won the Grand Slam at Merion, I could see there being some Merion in Augusta. Is there any? Does anyone know what he thought of Merion? From what I have seen on TV and in person. I think 18 at Merion and 10 at Augusta are at least a touch similar. The length and tee shot at least. Maybe 3 at Augusta and 12 at Merion?

[JESII]

Glenn,

I know Merion very well, but only know Augusta from TV. Based on that I would say your two comparison's are no less than five hundred miles off-base.  


p.s. Jones also won his first Amatuer at Merion in '24.

[Glenn Spencer]

JES,

Do you really think that I am that far off? I am not hinting that they are replicas, by any means. Aren't some of the same principles in effect though? Think about your own career and think about what Nicklaus has said about his and his design career, do you really think that it is crazy to think that Jones wouldn't have had a special place in his heart for Merion and wanted to apply some of the same shots? A reach? Sure, but I don't think it is that much of one.

[BCrosby]

Bill - It was not clear in '29 that Jones would build his own course. At the time of the MacK meeting in California that year I don't think he was auditioning Mack. I think they were just friends. I don't know of any evidence that Ross was ever in the running. If you have something I would love to see it.

I've got a copy of the MacK TOC map as well. Mack said it contains a mistake, but he went to his grave thinking that no one else had spotted it. I haven't found it. But it keeps me looking, hoping for the eureeka moment that will make be famous.

Bob  

[BCrosby]

Glenn - What JES II said.

Bob

[JESII]

Glenn,

I know what you're saying about holes on courses I have played well on, I agree that they are very likely strong influences for the guys that play first and then build a course or two later. I was really just giving you a hard time, and also waiting for your buddy Mucci to come on here and lecture about discussing courses you have not seen.

Here's my impression of the holes you compared.

#3 at Merion is and always has been much longer than #12 at Augusta, while #12 seems to be much more demanding from a distance control perspective. Both greens are shorter on the left running to longer carries on the right but the Augusta green seems quite uneventful (almost a reward for actually finding it) while the Merion green is extremely undulating. I also believe #12 is downhill considerably while #3 is flat to slightly uphill with a good deal of the green obscured from view.


#10 at Augusta seems like a 'forced' draw to achieve the maximum benefit of the fairway undulation (turbo boost). It is debateable whether or not it benefits the player to get to that turbo boost at Merion (just ask Hogan). In fact, a draw hit off the 18th tee at Merion that lands in the far right corner needs a fairly soft fairway to stay out of the left rough. The right to left slope is considerable enough that it virtually forces a fade into the hill. Add to that the uphill nature of the tee shot at Merion as compared to what appears to be a substantially downhill (although maybe not until after the ball lands) tee shot at Augusta and, again, these holes seem quite different to me. One similarity may be a green that runs away at the rear on both. Merion's does, and it seemed like ANGC did when Wier and Mattice were playing it in their playoff, am I correct?