[Mike Nuzzo]

Hole #1 for me.
It sets the tone and can describe a lot of what the course will be like.  The green especially.
I agree with Tom, in that the next few let the player know what kinds of different challenges to expect - either subtle, not or both.

As an example...

First hole a very wide short par 4 with a slight advantage to one side vs. the other based on the pin placement.  Superb green.

Second - slightly long par 4 with a more undulating fairway, and a huge advantage for hitting the proper side, but it isn't as apparent as the first - which has cross bunkers.  It looks even wider than the first too.  #2 looks easy but plays hard due to the wild green.

The strategies are similar, but play quite different.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom Doak,

Did everyone agree the problem with the old opener at Commonwealth was its length, or that the hole was followed by a 500-yard par 5? Was the problem the wait on 1 tee or the length of the average round?

Mark

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

I suspect the pace of play problem at Commonwealth was more to do with the problems of starting a pro event than it was for the members.


The 1st at Victoria is 260 yards- downhill-  and they have never had a problem with the members.It gets the field away well and Victoria is the busiest of the Melbourne sandbelt clubs.
It has been closed for a few months - we just rebuilt it along the principles of the old opener at Commonwealth - a fade,left to right green with a difficult pitch or bunker shot from the right and an easier shot from short and left.
Only a perfectly shaped shot will hit the green now - as opposed to the old hole which was just a high bomb with no real penalty for a miss to a particular side.

[Sean_A]

Mark and Sean:

Put yourself in the client's shoes.  The driveable par 4 start will create ten-minute gaps between tee times, and that is the number which determines how many people will play your course each day.  

If I tell you it will reduce the time to play 18 holes so you can squeeze three or four more tee times at the end of the day, is that going to replace one or two tee times every hour through the day for you?  Aren't you just going to tell me to design the course differently so that you can get EVEN MORE people through?

I honestly don't know the answer to that, because in 20 years not a single client of mine has ever expressed an interest in the pace of play before we built a course for them!

Tom

I am not surprised that pace of play is an after thought.  To me it is one of the most important elements to enjoying the game.  I don't want to wait for guys ahead.  IMO it is much better to let them kick on a hole and be out of the way.  I have never subscribed to the notion that there should be 36 groups on the course.  A far more sensible number (at least for enjoying the game) is about 27.  Also, when groups do catch another group it is far more likely that there is space to be let through without slowing down much of the course.  I spose I am describing how many private clubs operate - no doubt a priveledged position to be in.  

I also like par 3, openers, especially long ones.  Not so much as a design feature (because they are daunting to face with the opening shot), but they certainly work to space groups.  To me, unless there is a compelling reason not to do so, the first hole should foster spacing of play.  

But then, I don't plan on operating a course any day soon!

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
If I read your first post correctly about "highlight" holes scattered at Pacific Dunes, it implies to me that you purposely did a better job on some of those holes over the others?  Is that "highlight" philosophy what dictated the routing you ended up choosing, or did you just take more time on some holes vs. others to get them right?
Mark  

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

On property like Pacific Dunes, the highlights are God's work, not mine.  It hits the ocean at 4, 10-11, and 13, I just did my best to space out those points in the routing.  The non-highlight holes were actually the ones which required the most creative work on my part.

You'll find out more about it when I get this darned book finished.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
Forgive me for doting, but a lesser architect could have easily ruined God's work  

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:  Maybe so, but the 10th and 13th were the two easiest holes on the course to get right.  The fourth and 11th needed a bit of help from Jim Urbina and co.

[Jonathan Cummings]

How about all of them.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jonathan,
I'd think that 'all of them' wouldn't be possible.  Think of the great courses, and all have holes that aren't up to par with the others.

Besides, a golfer needs a breather from time to time, right?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Dan - there is no architect, absolutely none, that goes into a project thinking of how to build the 'forgettable' holes.  Each and every one of them aspires to make 18 Pine Valley holes.  Anything less and they should be in another profession.

JC

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()