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Ted Kramer

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How Many Acres do You Need?
« on: January 23, 2007, 01:06:12 PM »
How many acres are needed to build a golf course?
I know that there isn't any one answer, I'm just looking for a range.

Thanks,
Ted
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George Pazin

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »
Hi Ted -

When I first started reading about gca, the number always thrown around was 150 acres. However, I think other posters have said the new number is closer to 250-300, due to many environmental and other such restrictions.

Every now and then you hear about an older course that was built on about 100 acres. I think Merion is pretty small, total acreage-wise, and I think some of the older Ross courses up in New England are also similarly cozy.

Hope you're enjoying fatherhood as much as me....
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 01:50:38 PM »
Perfect parcel of land assuming a Par 70 with range, parking you could do it in 90 acres, less perfect can be anything ofcourse but 150 is a nice average amount.
A golf hole exists approximately within a 70 yard zone, which is the approx running width of 1 acre of land so,(69x69) a 420 yard hole exists in 6 acres of land... well thats the theory, its been broken lots of times of course.
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A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
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archie_struthers

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 02:56:10 PM »
 8) :D ;D

Merion, I believe, is on 107 acres, a marvelous feat helped by the elevations that allow for some great parallel fairways and an ingenious routing.
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 03:36:21 PM »
Ted,

Every situation is different.

Over a flat piece of ground without any wetlands and lakes, for example, you might be able to get away with 150 acres.

Take a hilly tract though, featuring some wetlands and a lake or two, and you might need 300 acres.

There's really no general rule.
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jeffmingay.com

Ted Kramer

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 05:17:19 PM »
Thanks guys.
I was really trying to see if 80 acres could/would suffice.

Thanks.

-Ted
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 06:14:04 PM »
Ted,

80 acres may suit a fine 9-hole course.
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jeffmingay.com

Kalen Braley

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 06:40:26 PM »
How many acres is Riveria set on?  
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Philippe Binette

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 07:18:20 PM »
One thing I'd like to know,

How many acres the Old Course is set on...

If you have 80 acres on a simple site, you could built 18 holes, if you're alone to play them
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James Bennett

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2007, 07:37:33 PM »
Ted

there are several courses in Adelaide (Australia) built on 80 acres.  There are holes that are narrow, with fairways perhaps 22 yards wide, three yards of rough then a single tree line, followed by a further three yards of rough and a 22 yard  wide fairway on the next hole.  Very intimate in parts.

If you are going to build 18 holes on 80 acres, I expect the holes will generally be straight (because any dogleg will require more room than a straight hole, in terms of the overall property) and it is unlikely to exceed 6500 yards at the longest (less would be more feasable).  Forget about a practice fairway because you can't afford the space, and make the clubhouse/greensheds/carpark etc an efficient use of land.  Perhaps across the road  as at Deal.

In short, it can be done, but everything needs to be planned right, and built as planned.  And all land is usable (no water storage dams).  Get one fairway too wide by 5 yards and you are going to have some very narrow congestion points somewhere else.  A better proposition is if you have an extra 20 acres.  More feasable again with an extra 40 acres.

James B
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 07:39:43 PM by James Bennett »
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Guy Phelan

Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 08:21:46 PM »
The Rolling Road Golf Club, designed by Willie Park, Jr. in Baltimore, MD is supposed to be in the book of world records for being a championship golf course built over the least amount of acres. I guess I could research, but I as I recall,  somewhere around 90 acres. All I know is that I want to wear a hard hat every time I play it. Especially in two spots - 1. crossing the 2nd fairway from the 3rd green to the 4th tee. and 2. standing on 17 tee with guys hitting their second shots into the 7th green over the trees that are above where I am standing....btw...there is a fence there for your protection...lol

Guy

http://www.rollingroadgc.org/default.aspx?p=GenericModuleDefault&NoModResize=1&NoNav=1&ShowFooter=False&ModID=30099&modtype=Clubnbsp;Informationnbsp;/nbsp;Photonbsp;Tour&sl=1&vnf=0&ssid=100&dpageid=201338
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Andrew Balakshin

Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 09:05:48 PM »
Quote from: archie_struthers on January 23, 2007, 02:56:10 PM
8) :D ;D

Merion, I believe, is on 107 acres, a marvelous feat helped by the elevations that allow for some great parallel fairways and an ingenious routing.

It is actually on 126 acres of land. Still a very small site nonetheless!

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=golf-m/misc/course_reviews/merion_east.htm
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mike_beene

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 11:17:07 PM »
My home course is ,I believe on less than 120 acres.Maybe someone like Lou Duran would know for sure.There are three scary places,especially after we took the tee screens down on two holes.The Old Course feels much more dangerous.
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Tim Gavrich

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2007, 11:42:39 PM »
I think Caledonia is situated on fewer than 125 acres.  I have never felt unsafe on any hole there--it is masterfully routed.
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Adrian_Stiff

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2007, 04:10:55 AM »
Quote from: Ted Kramer on January 23, 2007, 05:17:19 PM
Thanks guys.
I was really trying to see if 80 acres could/would suffice.

Thanks.

-Ted
Ted- The smallest parcel I have built an 18 hole course on is 84.8 acres, though I have a smaller one on the drawing board at the moment. You could do a smallish one on 80 acres, but with modern H & S issues, it might be hard to conform to safety margins. One trick with building on small parcels is to have lots of Par 3 holes, if you had 6 '3's instead of a regular 4x 3s, you can free up quite a bit of land, reason a par 3 has a narrower playing width (35 yd) so in theory 6 par 3 holes could utilise 6 acres. I am working on a par 66 course on about 64 acres, it only has one area where I am really worried about the saftey margins. It has 8 par 3 holes, 8 par 4 holes and 2 par 5s.
The Old Course I would say is on 85-90 acres, though I doubt you could build it today and not be sued. There is a lot of evidence of good courses c100 acres.
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A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2007, 10:44:22 AM »
Ted,

this was done last year and I believe there was one or two courses in Oz 18 holes of between 70 and 80 acres.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2007, 11:20:28 AM »

It is very dependant on the site conditions.

Do you own the property?
Do you have a topo?
Is is zoned properly?
The cost to develop a project in your region may be cost prohibitive for a smaller course.
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Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2007, 11:32:29 AM »
I always thought Wannamoisett CC (Rhode Island, Ross, par 69) set the standard in the US for the quality:acres ratio

http://www.wannamoisett.com/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?GRP=5074&NS=PUBLIC&APP=32

I think its about 90 acres.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:32:48 AM by Geoffrey_Walsh »
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AndrewB

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2007, 11:40:53 AM »
Quote from: Philippe Binette on January 23, 2007, 07:18:20 PM
One thing I'd like to know,

How many acres the Old Course is set on...

I could've sworn I just read that The Old Course is on 90 acres, but I can't find the reference at the moment.  That's at least close to what Adrian suggested above.
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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2007, 01:50:25 PM »
For years the standard was 160 acres. Now, its 160-180 acres of useable land, minus the untouchable Environmentally Sensitive Areas that can vary wildly, but its usually about 10% of the total.  

Its probably 180-200 useable acres when in a housing development, since there are fewer shared buffer spaces, the safety requirement to adjacent housing and roads is more than adjacent golf holes.  As a result, housing courses tend to use more land.

Anybody proposing a new golf course on 80 acres better have a good lawyer!
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Neil_Crafter

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2007, 04:41:14 PM »
The course James Bennett may be referring to is the Riverside Golf Club in Adelaide. Its on 77 acres and 18 holes par 70, though until we did some extensive safety related modifications (safety problems with adjacent housing) a couple of years back it was a par 71. Surprisingly, internal safety is not a huge problem and I think all their members are still intact (apart from some who sadly perished when a section of the clubhouse roof collapsed a few years ago).

It can be done, but no-one would try this out of the box today with a new course. Glenelg GC is on 110 acres and Kooyonga around 120, but any new courses we do would need around 150 to 180.

We have just designed a shorter 18 holer in Vietnam, par 68 and 4800 metres on around 32 hectares (79 acres).
cheers Neil
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Jeff_Mingay

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2007, 05:06:04 PM »
Marine Drive in Vancouver is laid out over about 90 acres. The course works ok, but as Neil states above, no one in their right mind would attempt to the same routing on such a tiny piece of property today.

Marine Drive was originally laid out during the 1920s, by Vernon Macan... and, for the record, it's an ingenius routing over that 90 acres.  
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jeffmingay.com

James Bennett

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2007, 05:40:52 PM »
Neil

actually, it wasn't Riverside.  Think more north-east City.  Also a place dear to my heart in the south-eat of the City, prior to 1992 (the front nine still has these characteristics).  All of these three were around 80 acres of playing area - according to Google maps and the area measure tool.

Neil's work at Riverside involved converting a par 4 of 400 yards to a par 3 of some 180 yards - not a lot of difference in difficulty but the lowering of par by a shot.  However, the relief from dangerous congestion in this area and on adjacent holes (and properties) was significant.

The problems at small acreage courses can multiply when the members decide that the now-mature course can be improved by just pushing this tee back 10 yards, this green back 15 yards, and perhaps creating a new 'shute' to gain 30 yards.  It happens.  The course is 100 yards longer, and it now feels as if it is played in a straight-jacket.

Neil, I haevn't checked Murray Bridge's acreage but that would be a good example of a small acreage course that IMO works well.  

James B
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 05:43:08 PM by James Bennett »
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jim Franklin

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Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2007, 05:46:24 PM »
Geoff -

Wannamoisett is on 98 acres and is the toughest par 69 you will ever play. It certainly is not wedged in the property like Rolling Road in Baltimore. And there really is not any place on the course where I fear for my protection from errant shots like at Rolling Road.
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Mr Hurricane

Guy Phelan

Re:How Many Acres do You Need?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2007, 07:38:27 PM »
Quote from: Jim Franklin on January 24, 2007, 05:46:24 PM
Geoff -

Wannamoisett is on 98 acres and is the toughest par 69 you will ever play. It certainly is not wedged in the property like Rolling Road in Baltimore. And there really is not any place on the course where I fear for my protection from errant shots like at Rolling Road.

Jim,

Do you have us on the tee in May?

Guy
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