[Phil McDade]

Matt:

Maybe so in some states, but in Wisconsin, nearly every course in the top 10 (save for Lawsonia and RTJ Sr.'s SentryWorld) has only been around for about 15 years or less (some only a few years -- the Bull and Big Fish). That may say more about the state of Wisconsin golf before Kohler, Nicklaus et al. moved into the state and started designing courses. But, some good courses -- the aforementioned Springs, Lake Arrowhead's older 18 -- didn't make the list, and presumably might have if not for the newer courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Guess what partner -- maybe the newer courses are indeed better than the ones you mentioned. Many states have gone through an accelerated process in recent times as the name designers (e.g. Nicklaus, Doak, C&C, Fazio, et al) enter a given area and begin to enter their various projects into the area. You can see such a situation in various places throughout the USA.

Truth be told -- I am glad that many people really understand and appreciate what Lawsonia / Links offers.

Phil, I've played Lake Arrowhead's older 18 a number of years ago when I also played Milwaukee CC and Sentry World on a visit some time ago.

The progression of newer courses is a very tricky process. Part of the issue is that "newness" often is overrated by some because of the "new boy on the block syndrome." At the same time -- some of the older public tracks are frankly not very good and have remained "favorites" of certain old time folks. This happens in plenty of situations.

Candidly, there is no perfect process because when you merge different people you will get some compromised outcome. All one can do is try to give greater weight to those who see and play the courses on a steady basis more bang for the results they provide -- while at the same time calculating the input of those who stop by and play from time to time.

Phil -- I gain a good bit of info when people mention courses that are not on the listing because there have been time when I have been greatly impressed about what they offer.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The GW list for PA is sorely outdated. 2 of the courses are now private- Hartefeld@7 and Great Bear@4- and if they are omitted the list shows the sad state of public golf in PA if the new Ravens Claw ranks in the top 10:

 Pennsylvania
1. Olde Stonewall, Ellwood City (m)
2. Nemacolin Woodlands (Mystic Rock), Farmington (m)
3. Golf Course at Glen Mills, Glen Mills (m)
4. Great Bear, East Stroudsburg (m)
5. Club at Morgan Hill, Easton (m)*
6. Hershey CC (Old), Hershey (c)
7. Hartefeld National, Avondale (m)
8. Raven's Claw, Limerick (m)*
9. Links at Gettysburg, Gettysburg (m)
10. Toftrees Resort, State College (m)

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Frankly, the quality of public golf in Pennsy is really more the issue -- but that's something I have said for quite some time. If the ratings for the Keystone State are to be taken seriously more change is needed and no doubt IMHO, Lederach will need to be included when they are updated.

For Olde Stonewall to be rated #1 is frankly one of the best jokes I have heard in some time. Give me a round at Birdsfoot which is northeast of Pittsburgh anytime over that. Ditto the qualities of Quick Silver in Midway.

[Chris_Clouser]

Andy,

The only one of the top 10 in Indiana I have not played is the Warren Course.  I haven't played Brickyard, Otter or Rock Hollow recently though.  I just don't get the love that Brickyard Crossing gets from people around the country.  Yes, it is cool to play inside the Speedway, but the holes are mostly boring.  Heartland Crossing is way overrated.  It is a good course, but I've played five courses around the state that are better that aren't listed.  Bear Slide should be in that top 10 somewhere.  I also don't see how Prairie View gets above Purgatory either.  I can understand how the The Fort gets the position it has, but just don't agree.  

For the most part I agree with the Indiana list, just not the order.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here's my current home state of Oklahoma..

 Oklahoma
1. Karsten Creek GC, Stillwater (No. 34 m)
2. Chickasaw Pointe, Kingston (m)
3. University of Oklahoma GC, Norman (c)
4. Forest Ridge GC, Broken Arrow (m)
5. Bailey Ranch, Afton (m)

Only complaint is that in the ordering.. number 3 moves to number 5 and the others move up. Honestly after Karsten there's really not much public golf worth seeking out here in Oklahoma.  

My former home state of Washington..

 Washington
1. Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton (m)
2. Trophy Lake Golf & Casting, Port Orchard (m)
3. Semiahmoo, Blaine (m)
4. Port Ludlow Resort (Tide/Timber), Port Ludlow (m)
5. Desert Canyon, Oreland (m)

No way is Port Ludlow a better course than Desert Canyon.. shouldn't be in the top 10.  I'd probably have Desert Canyon as #3.  After that its all pretty much the same, nothing worth traveling a long ways for. Maybe the new course in Tacoma will change that.  

Public golf in Washington overall is better than Oklahoma but it will cost you a lot more and Karsten is way better than anything WA has to offer.

[John Foley]

Here is the current NY List

  New York
1. Bethpage State Park (Black), Farmingdale (No. 21 c)
2. Shenendoah, Verona (m)
3. Saratoga National, Saratoga (m)
4. Atunyote, Verona (m)*
5. Bethpage State Park (Red), Farmingdale (c)*
6. Kaluhyat, Verona (m)*
7. Branton Woods, Hopewell Junction (m)
8. Sagamore GC, Bolton Landing (c)
9. Links at Hiawatha Landing, Apalachin (m)
10. Tallgrass, Shoreham (m)*


 I have not heard good things about Saratoga National and at the prices they are asking I don't expect to get there any time soon.

Branton Woods is very very strong, though went 100% private this past fall.

While the three Turning Stone courses are very good they seem a high.

Greystone, Bristol Harbour & Leatherstocking shoukd all be on the list ahead of them.

Suprised there are no other greater NYC/LI courses besides the 4 listed.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I haven't been to Western PA in a long time and haven't played Birdsfoot, Midway or Mystic Rock, but I remember playing Deer Run in Gibsonia which I thought was far better than Ravens Claw. It's now listed as semi-private. www.deerrungolfclub.com
The newish Wrendale(Hurdzan/Fry) near Hershey is also semi private and, from what I hear, should be a top 10 candidate as well.

Steve

[Brad Klein]

Steve, sorely out of date in Pa?

Hartfield National only went private on Nov. 6, 2006; long after the list was developed. Great Bear is still public -- unless they were lying to me when I was on the phone with them 30 seconds ago.

Brad

[Brian Cenci]

Here's my home state:

Michigan
1. Arcadia Bluffs, Arcadia (No. 22 m)
2. Greywalls, Marquette (m)*
3. Forest Dunes, Roscommon (m)*
4. Tullymore, Stanwood (m)
5. Black Forest at Wildnerness Valley, Gaylord (m)
6. Bay Harbor (Links/Quarry), Harbor Springs (m)
7. Lakewood Shores Resort (Gailes), Oscoda (m)
8. Treetops North (Smith), Gaylord (m)
9. Black Lake, Onaway (m)
10. High Pointe, Traverse City (m)
11. Belvedere, Charlevoix (c)
12. High Pointe, Traverse City (m)
13. Boyne Highlands (Heather), Harbor Springs (m)
14. Treetops North (Fazio), Gaylord (m)
15. Orchards, Washington (m)

Rather than list what I've played, the only I haven't are #8, #11 and #14.  List is pretty decent.

They are missing Eagle Eye (probably because it is relatively new), which should be #3 or #4 and Angel's Crossing (probably also too new) which I think should be around #6-#10.  They're missing Red Hawk and Shephard's Hollow which both should be somewhere between #6-#10, just behind Lakewood Shores.  Black Forest is a little high, I wouldn't put it any higher than #10.  Pilgrim's Run and Yarrow Golf & Conference Center I'd have in my top #15 toward the bottom but there's probably 30-40 courses that could all be lumped in the #12-#15 range for the state depending on different taste.  Overall, a pretty decent list with a few ommissions, that is all.

-Brian

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brad

Mea culpa.

I'd call Great Bear semi-private.They are selling memberships. I don't know how many. I thought Hartefeld went fully private earlier last year.

Steve

[Jason Topp]

The lists for the states where I have enough experience to have some idea (MN, IA, AZ, WI) look pretty accurate to me and far more accurate than other lists I have seen.

[Chris_Blakely]

Brian Cenci

I agree Michigan's list is very good.  I too would consider the following:

Yarrow GC
Shepherd's Hollow GC
Marywood CC
True North GC (semi-private right now)
The Mines GC (too new for the list I know)
Angels Crossing GC (again too new for the list)
Eagle Eye GC (most likely too new)
The Cheif GC at Sky Lodge
Shanty Creek GC - Cedar River

I would think states like California, New York, Michigan, etc could go 20 deep with the amount of quality public golf.

Chris

[tlavin]

Here's my home state:

 Illinois
1. Cog Hill (No.4-Dubsdread), Lemont (m)
2. Eagle Ridge (The General), Galena (m)
3. Kokopelli, Marion (m)*
4. Weaver Ridge, Peoria (m)
5. Thunderhawk, Beach Park (m)
6. TPC at Deere Run, East Moline (m)*
7. Pine Meadow, Mundelein (m)
8. Kemper Lakes, Long Grove (m)
9. Cantigny, Wheaton (m)
10. Glen Club, Glenview (m)

I haven't played all of them, but the list looks pretty inclusive and pretty accurate, based on what I've played and what I've heard.  What this list points out is what has been bandied about on other threads; namely, that Illinois has a plethora of great privates but a paucity of superb publics.  (Just wanted to use plethora and paucity in the same sentence, thank you very much!)

[Dan Kelly]

Here's my home state:

 Illinois

Terry --

I was in your home state last week, and was wandering around Fort Sheridan.

There seemed to be a plethora of open ground, awaiting a golf course -- and a paucity of evidence that a golf course will result.

Do you know what 's up there?

Dan

[Glenn Spencer]

IMO Ohio's list is garbage:

Ohio

1. Longaberger, Nashport
2. Shaker Run, Lebanon
3. Boulder Creek, Streetsboro
4. Avalon G&CC (Avalon/Lakes), Warren
5. Hickory Hills, Grove
6. Aston, North Bend
7. Stonewater, Cleveland
8. Rattlesnake Ridge, Sundbury
9. Elk's Run, Batavia
10. Cooke's Creek, Columbus

Longaberger at 1, Shaker Run at 2, Boulder Creek at 3, Aston Oaks (you have got to be kidding me) at 6, Rattlesnake Ridge is private and has been for 2 or 3 years and even if it was public is not in the top 10, Elk's Run at 9 and Cooke's Creek and 10 should not be on the list.

Some in Ohio that could/should (note all are public access at some time - some semi-private):

Sleepy Hollow GC Great Stanley Thompson course in Cleveland

The GC at Stonelick Hills is the best course in Batavia Ohio and a heck of a lot better than Elks Run by Norman

Blue Heron GC (Lakes/Highlands) John Robinson course in Medina that just make Golf Digest's Best New in 2006.

Elks CC under the radar Ross in Portsmouth, OH

Little Mountain CC Concord, OH I put this Hurdzan and Fry above Stonewater

Blackmoor GC Wintersville, OH (terrific John Robinson course on an extremly undulating site)

Castle Shannon GC wild course on some wild terrain with bold greens and at one time bolder bunkering (many have been grassed in)

Salt Fork State Park GC very fun Kidwell in Salt Fork State Park

Oak Shadows GC unknown John Robinson course in New Philadephia, OH

Auman Timbers GC for shear wow factor on 10 holes - Wild Robinson course in Dover, OH that just opened full 18 - conditions can be a problem, but course is a blast.

Crystal Springs GC Hopewell, OH would probably not make the top ten, but is better than several on Golfweek's list

Granville GC Ross in Granville, OH

Note to Glenn / Doug, I do not have any Art Hills courses on the list and for good reason with all the other quality courses that are availible in the State.

Chris,

Those are some nice additions to Ohio. I agree 100% with your call on Elks and Granville. Although, it has been a LONG time since I played Granville. Elks is pretty good. I played the Ohio Mid-Amateur there. I really liked it, the course gave up some LOW scores, but it was a blast to play. Some fabulous holes out there. I really liked 1,2,3,10 and 16. Elks Run and Stonelick is interesting. Elks Run has its faults for sure, but I am not completely sold on Stonelick just yet. 9 and 18 are serious problems on that golf course to me. Outside of that, it is pretty good. 4? The first par 5 is not a very good hole either. Actually, the par 5's are the only problem that I have with the place, even though I like 10 and 14? I think it is. 16 is a great short hole and 5 is a great long one. 7 and 8 are solid. 11 is another good shorty.


Andy,

You know the Indiana list better than me, but doesn't one have to be at least mildly insane to put Purgatory ahead of the Trophy Club?

[Dan_Callahan]

Well, this is sad. I really want to take issue with the list from Connecticut:

1. Lake of Isles (North), North Stonington (m)*
2. Wintonbury Hills, Bloomfield (m)
3. Oxford Greens, Oxford (m)*
4. Fox Hopyard, East Haddam (m)
5. Great River, Milford (m)

I didn't much care for Lake of Isles, and I hated Fox Hopyard and Great River. Unfortunately, when I thought about what would replace them I came up empty. I much prefer Shennecossett and Richter to those three, but I would guess the majority of golfers out there would disagree. I thought Yale was open to the public at a huge fee (like Taconic), but I just checked their website and it looks like that is no longer the case. Public golf in CT sucks. At least Gillette Ridge didn't crack the top 5.

[tlavin]

Here's my home state:

 Illinois

Terry --

I was in your home state last week, and was wandering around Fort Sheridan.

There seemed to be a plethora of open ground, awaiting a golf course -- and a paucity of evidence that a golf course will result.

Do you know what 's up there?

Dan

Mike Keiser owns the Glen Club, a very difficult (from the back tees) and not very scenic Tom Fazio design that was built in that area.  Thunderhawk and Pine Meadow are in the general area as well.

[Matt_Ward]

John Foley:

On the New York side -- from the ones you presented -- you have the painful omission of Montauk Downs State Park on eastern LI. Superb layout that NY State has seen fit to improve from years of neglect.

Although I understand your angst about the prices at Saratoga National -- I still would have the layout among the top ten in the Empire State. As good as Roger Rulewich did with Ballyowen in my home state of Jersey -- he has done a superior job with the routing there considering all the wetlands that needed to be avoided.

The Sagamore is a wonderful layout but there are few holes of note that really speak to the entire layout being cited. Leatherstocking would be a far more appealing place because of the totality of what that design provides.

Frankly, New York State and Pennsylvania have some of the least appealing public courses from a depth perspective -- particularly when compared to the likes of New Jersey. It's hard to fathom how The Empire and Keystone States respectively have some of the finest private clubs but the public side is so hideously poor in terms of overall depth.

 

[Phil McDade]

"Generally, many of these same folks follow the "herd" mentality -- that means they simply go with the standard list of courses and simply reinforce their position over and over again with more rounds. The process of change through such actions is really quite s-l-o-w."

Phil:

Guess what partner -- maybe the newer courses are indeed better than the ones you mentioned. Many states have gone through an accelerated process in recent times as the name designers (e.g. Nicklaus, Doak, C&C, Fazio, et al) enter a given area and begin to enter their various projects into the area. You can see such a situation in various places throughout the USA.

Truth be told -- I am glad that many people really understand and appreciate what Lawsonia / Links offers.

Phil, I've played Lake Arrowhead's older 18 a number of years ago when I also played Milwaukee CC and Sentry World on a visit some time ago.

The progression of newer courses is a very tricky process. Part of the issue is that "newness" often is overrated by some because of the "new boy on the block syndrome." At the same time -- some of the older public tracks are frankly not very good and have remained "favorites" of certain old time folks. This happens in plenty of situations.

Candidly, there is no perfect process because when you merge different people you will get some compromised outcome. All one can do is try to give greater weight to those who see and play the courses on a steady basis more bang for the results they provide -- while at the same time calculating the input of those who stop by and play from time to time.

Phil -- I gain a good bit of info when people mention courses that are not on the listing because there have been time when I have been greatly impressed about what they offer.

Matt:

I think we're generally on the same page; I took from the quote from your first post that you thought some rankings were tied to what rankers know and admire, and that some were unwilling to consider "new" courses as competing favorably with the old standbys.

There's little doubt the standard of public (although on the expensive end of things) golf in Wisconsin has been raised in the past decade or so -- not just the Kohler-area quartet, but Lehman's Troy Burne, Dye's course near Hayward, and the Bull by Nicklaus. All have very good reputations in the state, and pushed aside courses from previous lists that are probably not in their league anymore.

I do think URidge gets over-rated because of its relative newness, its ties to dear ole' UW, and the RTJ JR. connection. It's good, but not top-10 good; there are a bunch of other publics within an easy drive of Madison that I'd rather play (and walk -- a key consideration for me).

[John Foley]

Matt,

Good call on Montauk. I have not played there, but from those I know who have the felling is that it is a very strong place.

I hear you on Saratoga. I do need to get there, but I'd rather get my fill of playing Leatherstocking & Turningstone many times before heading there.

I'm very suprised how poor the public offerings are in the NYC/LI area. As an outsider looking in, I would expect more. The whole area North of NYC (Westchester, Orange, Ducthess) is pretty void of quality except for Branton Woods and Ivy Ridge (quality, but a step below BW). Mansion Ridge was very poor.

[Dan Kelly]

Here's my home state:

 Illinois

Terry --

I was in your home state last week, and was wandering around Fort Sheridan.

There seemed to be a plethora of open ground, awaiting a golf course -- and a paucity of evidence that a golf course will result.

Do you know what 's up there?

Dan

Mike Keiser owns the Glen Club, a very difficult (from the back tees) and not very scenic Tom Fazio design that was built in that area.  Thunderhawk and Pine Meadow are in the general area as well.

There's supposed to be course in the offing for Fort Sheridan. I just wondered if you (or anyone) knows where the project stands.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

Just a quick note -- there are a few hi-priced layouts in the outer "burbs" of NYC but none of them are really design wise worthy of top ten status.

Nicklaus has Mansion Ridge in Orange County -- has a few holes of note but Saratoga National is considerably better. Your take is right on the mark. Ditto the efforts of Larry Nelson with Centennial -- a 27-hole layout on the other side of the Hudson that offers a hefty green fee tag befitting it's locale.

John, the issue with The Empire State is that too few designers are going to be getting any serious work that's not tied to a major development or Native-American casino oriented project. You also have a very short season in most parts of New York and the efforts to overcome that don't invite much enthusiasm from potential investors.

What's interesting is that NYC itself has some courses of note -- Split Rock, Dyker Beach, LaTourette -- but even in pristine shape they would be struggling to sniff the top ten.

As I said before -- The Empire State demonstrates how people of money made it a point to create an array of superlative private clubs but the public sector is really a good ways below. To give you a comparison -- Colorado is as far ahead of New York in public golf -- as USC was ahead of Michigan in the Rose Bowl the other day.

[Phil McDade]

"You also have a very short season in most parts of New York and the efforts to overcome that don't invite much enthusiasm from potential investors."

Matt:

Any shorter than what we have here in Wisconsin, or in Colorado, or the Iron Range of Minnesota, which I think has a golf season of about six weeks?

I've spent a little time in New York and Pennsylvania, and generally agree about the state of public vs. private there. But is it really tied to investor confidence and the shortness of the golf season? I get the general impression -- even Herb Kohler's unique efforts aside -- that Wisconsin has been pretty successful relative to New York in developing some first-rate, high-end golf courses. And there is a heckuva lot more investors -- confident or not -- in New York and PA than in Wisconsin. Couldn't something else be at work here? I don't know the answer -- but some pretty out-of-the-way, short-season places seem to be attracting some pretty good public golf of late.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Steve, sorely out of date in Pa?

Hartfield National only went private on Nov. 6, 2006; long after the list was developed. Great Bear is still public -- unless they were lying to me when I was on the phone with them 30 seconds ago.

Brad

One of the more priceless posts on gca!

JC

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