[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry K. - just to make sure - I have not been to Ballyneal.  This will be my only comment, as staying the hell out of this is seeming to work very well, as so far the commentary has been very sane and intelligent... and Franklin is quite ably representing us GD raters anyway.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Thanks Huck for the endorsement .

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks Huck for the endorsement .

You remain THE MAN.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Adam, I tend to agree with you on the maintenance issue and the greens being overly slow for the better part of the year.  I think the playing conditions that are presented to the golfer have a huge impact on the initial assessment of the course, and with Ballyneal's greens being unusually slow, this had to have an impact on the ratings.

I also agree with your statement that the course will take numerous rounds before a golfer "figures out" how to best play it, which cannot be done in the one round or two that the raters had at the course.

That is absurd. Why is Ballyneal more "complex" then any other golf course?  You could say that about any course. Anyone who can't come to an NGLA, Sand Hills, Pine Valley, Friars Head, Pac Dunes or Ballyneal et al and see the "potential" options, strategies and playability in a single visit is blind to golf course architecture. What you and Adam are arguing is a copout to try to justify the results. There is no need to do so.  In the long run this sixth place will be as meaningless as Sandpines WINNING the best new affordable some time ago. The placement of Ballyneal is and will be a (poor) judgement on Golf Digest in the long run should Ballyneal be as good as everyone I've heard say it is.

Scott - to prove my point here is your quote from a few minutes ago on another thread about when you first realized some courses were different.

Scott Szabo-"Mine had to be last summer at Sand Hills.  I have played golf for over 25 years, but when I stepped on the first tee, I knew that this was something special.  The choices that were presented, both off the tee and into the greens, made me realize there was more to golf course architecture than simply tees, fairways and greens."

[Scott Szabo]

Geoffrey,

From your comment, I would assume that you have not played Ballyneal.  Also, I am not a member at Ballyneal, so I have no stake in the rankings.  I think 6th in the U.S. is quite an accomplishment.

Ballyneal is not your typical course.  In my opinion, it would take numerous trips around the course to determine the proper angle based on pin position, wind, etc.  Yes, that is present at most courses, but even more so at Ballyneal.  As for the other courses you mentioned, Sand Hills is the only one I've had the privilege of playing.  

[RJ_Daley]

Going along with what I believe Geoff is suggesting, this may very well be a case where in 10 years and after much evaluation, BallyNeal will be 6th best modern in that entire universe of courses, not just those that came on-line this year.  

I don't remember what SHGC came in, in about 1994-5.  Did it get best new?  

[John Kavanaugh]

I have been arguing for years now that the system is broken and bad for architecture.  The ranking of Ballyneal as #6 on this pissy ass lists proves my point.  Thank you very much.

[Noel Freeman]

I of course can only put my foot in my mouth but I for one can't believe Tom Doak would be happy with 6th place.. If we could envison a scene out of "Being Tom Doak" instead of "Being John Malkovich" and got into Tom's brain, I'm sure he thinks Ballyneal is a heck of a lot better than #6 on that list.. But this is pure drivel and conjecture on my part.  I don't think TD could publicly say what he truly believes in our PC world.

Will any of this matter in 2 years time anyway?  Why wasnt Sebonack on this list?

[Mike_Cirba]

I have been arguing for years now that the system is broken and bad for architecture.  The ranking of Ballyneal as #6 on this pissy ass lists proves my point.  Thank you very much.

John,

Do you think Ballyneal will be #6 Best New Private For the Year of our Lord 2006 on the Golfweek listing, or perhaps slightly better?

[Adam Clayman]

Dr. Childs, Do you honestly think complexity can't be acheived beyond what's come before?

Yes, Im  gratified by the placement on the list. Why I'm gratified is my own business and has alot to do with the Sandpines example, the Pine Meadows example, the ...etc..etc...etc.. examples.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

From your comment, I would assume that you have not played Ballyneal.  Also, I am not a member at Ballyneal, so I have no stake in the rankings.  I think 6th in the U.S. is quite an accomplishment.

Ballyneal is not your typical course.  In my opinion, it would take numerous trips around the course to determine the proper angle based on pin position, wind, etc.  Yes, that is present at most courses, but even more so at Ballyneal.  As for the other courses you mentioned, Sand Hills is the only one I've had the privilege of playing.  

Scott - No I have not seen Ballyneal but I am looking forward to a visit possibly this coming season. I have a friend who went to Ballyneal this past year and came back so impressed that he is now a member.  I trust his judgement without question and I know that he saw what was there in a single visit. You saw the greatness of Sand Hills in your visit so why are you claiming Ballyneal is any different? I saw Bethpage Black as a naive college freshman in 1969 and immediately saw this great golf course.  I believe Rich Goodale's statement that there is a real gap between the really excellent golf courses and the GREAT ones and sometimes its immediately apparent. If you've seen Ballyneal and believe it to be great then why not just say that Golf digest dropped the ball rather then what I think is an intellectually dishonest copout in saying that's the place is just too complex to digest in a single visit.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Dr. Childs, Do you honestly think complexity can't be acheived beyond what's come before?

Yes, Im  gratified by the placement on the list. Why I'm gratified is my own business and has alot to do with the Sandpines example, the Pine Meadows example, the ...etc..etc...etc.. examples.

Adam- I have no idea what you are saying here. Complexity beyond what has come before?  In my mind with understanding any subject comes simplicity not complexity. In science those details of how a cell works seem always to be incredibly complex until we arrive at the mechanisms whereby it all seems so simple and beautiful.  Such is the case in most endeavours.  If you have to make something overly complex the odds are that you don't understand what is going on.

[Jerry Kluger]

TH: I know you have not played Ballyneal. My point was that anyone who has played and loved Sand Hills, as you do, once they have played Ballyneal, will find it very difficult to say from an architectural point of view, which one is better.  

[Jason Blasberg]

I generally don't like to post critically here unless it's about hard golf course architecture but this list reflects to me an utter misunderstanding of it the merits of GCA, a reflection that the Gold Digest guys just don't get it and that we should pay less and less attention to things like this . . .

And I was wondering for years how Cuscowilla was not on the Digest list . . . sorry Huck but Digest gets a big   , yet again.

[Mike Benham]

... I wonder why it was only ranked 6th best.  Although, if you think about it, 6th best new course in the U.S. is quite an honor.

Anyone have any idea on how many new private courses were opened in 2006 (or were eligible for consideration)?

[Noel Freeman]

Dr. Childs, Do you honestly think complexity can't be acheived beyond what's come before?

Yes, Im  gratified by the placement on the list. Why I'm gratified is my own business and has alot to do with the Sandpines example, the Pine Meadows example, the ...etc..etc...etc.. examples.

Adam- I have no idea what you are saying here. Complexity beyond what has come before?  In my mind with understanding any subject comes simplicity not complexity. In science those details of how a cell works seem always to be incredibly complex until we arrive at the mechanisms whereby it all seems so simple and beautiful.  Such is the case in most endeavours.  If you have to make something overly complex the odds are that you don't understand what is going on.

In my limited New Scientist/Scientific American world, the best scientifc theory have elements of elegance which I believe is defined as somewhat simplicity.  The simpler it is, the greater the theory.  It is that reason perhaps why elegant golf courses in my opinion are the simplest or to use a much overused and undefined word, "minimal"..

[Tim Pitner]

I don't get the argument (if that's indeed what Adam and maybe Scott are suggesting) that Ballyneal is somehow too complex to appreciate without extended play.  I'm sure it's true that multiple plays are needed to know how to play certain holes, consider various winds, etc.  But, it's not so complex that raters shouldn't identify its quality.  After 27 holes, I knew it was one of the best courses I'll ever play and I'm no rocket scientist.  

[Steve Lang]

 

The new Fazio at Carlton Woods gets some good ink and some who have played it like it better than Jack's course at Carlton Woods, which was #1 in 2001..  pretty nice for 300 members..  

forget the hype, the ranking numbers..  Ballyneal is obviously a top new course by anyone's measure, once or more times played..

Adam, see you in the spring..

[John Kirk]

Gee, maybe I didn't have as much fun as I thought I did.

[Scott Szabo]

Geoffrey and Tim,

I'm not saying that Ballyneal is too complex to appreciate without extended play or to digest with a single round.  I think it would be difficult to FULLY appreciate it without extended play.  

[Adam Clayman]

Geoffrey, Perhaps complex was a poor choice of words.
In my mind, There's a huge difference between difficult and complex.

The complexity I see everyday at Ballyneal is mostly manifested in a mental process that the golfer has to go through, inorder to be sucessful. Calculations involving factors that go way beyond exact yardages.
Also, the greens at BN have a Prairie Dunes like character to them. Their transition of slope, is either extremely subtle, or craftily deceptive. I still don't know... and I've played it 24 times. I'm use to seeing a green, just a few times, and knowing with confidence the breaks and read for that green. Ballyneal is just not like that.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Adam

I fully understand what you are saying in your last post.  I do think that Tom Doak must be deeply disappointed with the Golf Digest panel and the sixth place finish for Ballyneal. History and time will determine its place in the world of golf and not a single Golf Digest listing.

I would guess that Ballyneal is a simple course in that it fits intimately with the land and the playing is a matter of understanding the land.  The greens all play according to the laws of physics and when you figure them out you might have also learned a bity about the land.  On the other hand, a manufactured golf course would seem to be much more complex with all of its artificial earth moving and mounding that seemingly can be disconnected from the surrounding land so that putts can seemingly break uphill due to trickery of the bulldoozer rather then the entire surrounds.

Complexity vs. simplicity - The mystery of DNA was hopelessly complex untill Watson and Crick showed it to be so simple as to having each strand of a double helix encode the information in its partner.  The genetic code whereby the DNA determines the order of the 20 amino acids in a protein strand was hopelessly complex until the genius of Crick again predicted the triplet non-overlapping size of the minimum packet of information and experimental proof showed it to be so simple and universal from bacteria to man.  Today, how the proteins fold into enzymes, receptors and binding proteins with their billions of possible combinations in 3-D is hopelessly complex with the supercomputers at work.  When we solve this mystery it too I predict will simplify our current beliefs and we will have the ability to control these proteins and cure just about every disease. Knowledge simplifies.

[RJ_Daley]

After 27 holes, I knew it was one of the best courses I'll ever play and I'm no rocket scientist.

That, and, Geoff's complexity VS simplicity makes me wish Dr. Richard Feynman was a golfer and GCA afficianado, and not just another Bongo player.

[Steve Lapper]

TH: I know you have not played Ballyneal. My point was that anyone who has played and loved Sand Hills, as you do, once they have played Ballyneal, will find it very difficult to say from an architectural point of view, which one is better.  

Your point is ABSOLUTELY invalid. Pehaps you are the only one who finds it difficult?

[Steve Lang]

 

Is it any wonder then that GCA is 75% of natures' DNA bio-builidng blocks

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