Kay's The Links of ND vs Richardson's Hideout

« **on:** November 21, 2006, 09:17:12 PM »

This is done in part to take up the challenge of Matt Ward, an example of which is quoted below.

Quote from: Matt_Ward on May 23, 2006, 12:56:29 PM

...
Jay -- I enjoy your comments generally -- but you have come down with a bad case of Sand Hills-itis (the disease that afflicts golfers who give more points to isolated courses than they actually deserve.
...
P.S. Plus -- If you are looking for out-of-the-way golf adventures then try western Colorado or Utah -- with such layouts as Lakota Canyon, Devil's Thumb and The Hideout respectively, to name just three.

Matt has expressed several times that his opinion of The Links of ND is quite low and that he thinks it to be over rated. We will see how a direct comparison comes out below.

To do the comparison, I created four categories, par 3, straight par 4, bending par 4, and par 5. Then I sorted the holes from shortest to longest. The comparison is two long for one post so will follow in the next few posts.

« **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2006, 09:20:08 PM »

In each case the first hole shown is from The Links of ND website, and the second is my pictures from Hideout.

PAR 3s

Comparison 1

11 139/121/115

3 168/138/123

The hole at the Links of ND is in a valley protected from the wind. If
it were more in the open, it would provide more competition for the
hole at Hideout.

Hideout 1 up

Comparison 2

3 145/132/120

7 172/162/138

Once again a short hole in a protected area cedes the advantage to the
Hideout.

Hideout 2 up

Comparison 3

8 185/174/124

11 180/167/135

Two holes with forced carris of about the same length. The Links wins
based on the more interesting plays forced by the green contours.

Hideout 1 up

Comparison 4

17 232/208/184

17 181/167/150

The somewhat downhill redan style par 3 at the Links easily wins over the
somewhat simple drop shot to a large green at the Hideout.

All square

« **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2006, 09:21:13 PM »

STRAIGHT PAR 4s

Comparison 5

13 369/334/290

15 290/280/239

This is an interesting comparison. Both green complexes make for a
difficult up and down. The difference is that at the Hideout, it will
typically be up and down for a 3 whereas at the Links it will be up and
down for a 4. The lay up at the Hideout is less interesting than the
lay up at the Links. Therefore, we are really comparing a go for it
vs. a lay up as the uphill at the Links puts going for it out of reach
for almost all golfers. After only one round at the Hideout, I questioned
the strength of #15, but I will give it the benefit of the doubt and
call this a halve.

All square

Comparison 6

1 407/386/367

12 360/326/298

In my opinion, #12 at the Hideout is an interesting hole
visually. However, it seems to throttle you back too much, whereas,
the first at the Links has simple but strategic bunkering, especially
for front right pins.

The Links 1 up

Comparison 7

14 465/422/406

1 371/352/312

Not a particularly interesting short hole at the Hideout, vs a long
par 4 at The Links with strategic bunkering.

The Links 2 up

Comparison 8

6 465/436/414

16 405/374/341

A truly shining hole at the Hideout that I created a thread about.

The Links 1 up

« **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2006, 09:23:28 PM »

BENDING PAR 4s

Comparison 9

9 346/331/313

5 375/308/275

Dogleg left guarded by a bunker at The Links and by trees at
Hideout. I know many GCAers would choose the bunkered hole, but I am
not as adverse to trees as some so I will call that aspect equal. The
hole at the Links has very significant contour in the green making it
almost imperative that you get your approach in the proper
section. However, Hideout has bunkering at the green that is more
punishing for missed shots. I will call this a halve.

The Links 1 up

Comparison 10

2 350/328/308

4 390/357/326

Another interesting head to head of two of my favorite holes. I am
giving this one to The Links based on the stategies I see opening up
based on pin position.

The Links 2 up

Comparison 11

16 407/392/375

10 400/358/318

Another dogleg around a tree at Hideout, vs. a virtual dogleg created
by the bunkering guarding a right side approach and created by the
angle of the green. The green at The Links has very interesting and
severe contours. I give this one to The Links.

The Links 3 up.

Comparison 12

5 445/415/400

8 402/371/341

The fifth at the Links primarily has the view of the lake going for
it. The eight at Hideout may be controversial, but it wins hands down.

The Links 2 up.

Comparison 13

15 457/426/407

6 415/356/331

A fun dogleg left then down the hill 15th at The Links vs. a fairly
plain hole other than the short forced carry at Hideout.

The Links 3 up.

Comparison 14

12 473/438/410

18 475/438/391

12 is one of the best holes at The Links, so although the 18th is a
good finisher at Hideout, once again The Links carries the day.

The Links 4 up.

« **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2006, 09:24:36 PM »

PAR 5s

Comparison 15

4 505/485/460

14 515/490/448

The Links hole plays uphill starting in a ravine of sorts to a fairway
canting left. Offers birdie chance if not waylayed by hazzards. The
hole at Hideout is a fairly standard dogleg left par 5.

The Links 5 up.

Comparison 16

7 560/518/487

13 540/523/462

One of the better par 5s at each course. Both offer different and
interesting options a shots throughout the hole. Halve.

The Links 5 up.

Comparison 17

10 570/551/527

2 558/501/475

Hideout's weakest par 5 loses this one.

The Links 6 up.

Comparison 18

18 572/542/512

9 581/555/504

I like The Links #18 much better than Matt Ward did. However, I like
the 9th at Hideout better and think it is the best par 5 there.

The Links wins 5 up.

« **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:29:13 AM »

Garland — That was an exciting "round", although I soon became discouraged that "I" was losing to a yardage book.

Not having visited Stephen's course, I will accept your outcome. For now!

It may be interesting to realize that The Hideout has 15 total bunkers. I counted that many on just a few holes of The Links of ND.

« **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:46:35 AM »

Forrest,

In many ways the people of Monticello have it better with the course and practice area being right in town. Not only is the course well outside of Williston, ND, making it a trip just to go play, but dropping by for some work on your game is pretty much out of the question.

« **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2006, 11:11:55 AM »

Garland, I enjoy Links of North deakota a great deal too. Sure, It's not NGLA, but for $45, its gorgeous, has alot of interesting holes and options and features some great routing tricks in the fierce winds.

It'll take me a while to dig up what I wrote on it, but I'll write some more between dealing with Thanksgiving prep.

No I have not played hideout, but I played western colorado. Lakota and Redlands are also excellent.

« **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2006, 11:18:43 AM »

I would like to get to both courses. Forrest, those severely canted fairways at the Hideout look positively "Olympian!" Driving is obviously a premium as it looks like errant tee shots could wind up in really bad places..

« **Reply #9 on:** November 22, 2006, 12:07:02 PM »

I was just looking at my desk golf hole calendar and today's hole was the 10th at Hawktree in Bismark, ND.
What is your opinion of that course? I don't recall seeing anything written on this site about it and it looks very interesting. How does it compare with the two courses you discussed above?

« **Reply #10 on:** November 22, 2006, 12:23:29 PM »

Tim,

If Jay does not come back and point you to his reviews, then you might IM him to ask. I did not get to Hawktree yet, but on future trips to visit family, I will for sure.

« **Reply #11 on:** November 22, 2006, 01:02:18 PM »

Jay — Thank you for remininf me of green fes. The Hideout is still $22 I believe. So, perhaps in that ratio of golf-to-cost, The Hideout scores high.

« **Reply #12 on:** November 22, 2006, 01:58:14 PM »

How are the vistas in N.D?

The drop shot hole in Monticello is better than Garland describes. So is the 12th "Dodge".

Havent been to the northland yet, but I sense it could easily be in my future.

One critique on the method of comparison. It is important in what sequence the holes play. In this format, that aspect is not considered, which I believe is a mistake and leads to a hole by individual hole analysis of GCA, which I rally against.
Is this a vaccum Danny?

« **Reply #13 on:** November 22, 2006, 06:32:03 PM »

I like hawktree...I wouldn't have picked 10 as a hole for a calender...maybe 12 or 15 or 5 or something. But for $50 its an excellent bargain. Throw in Bully pulpit and you have yourself a pleasanbt and in expensive little getaway.

Forrest, I promise to try to get to your course soon!

« **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2006, 07:25:21 PM »

Garland,

That was a great thread. We could all mince the details of your analysis but I have to say, that was one of the best defense / arguements I have ever seen posted. Nice work.

« **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2006, 07:33:59 PM »

Thanks Paul,

I would like to see more threads like it, and fewer of USC/ND, etc.

Now, I suppose you are either a Trojan or Irish, and I have just lost a fan.

« **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2006, 07:39:08 PM »

Quote from: Adam Clayman on November 22, 2006, 01:58:14 PM

...
One critique on the method of comparison. It is important in what sequence the holes play. In this format, that aspect is not considered, which I believe is a mistake and leads to a hole by individual hole analysis of GCA, which I rally against.
Is this a vaccum Danny?

I preferred the sequence/routing of The Links of ND over Hideout, also. Of course I considered doing them in hole order, but I don't feel that adds as much as comparing apples to apples.

« **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2006, 07:46:02 PM »

I actually prefer the way you did your comparison. As you stated you can truly make an apples to apples comparison this way.

The interesting debate that would ensue is whether the routing on the losing course could be so strong that it could overcome its other defficiencies enough to win in the end.

By the way, not to worry, I am a lowly Purdue fan.

« **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:50:02 PM »

Jay — Don't get there too quickly...The Hideout sits at 7,000 feet and I am certain snow will come any day now.

Apples-to-apples...? Really now.

Speaking as an author of an entire book on the subject of Routing, I hardly feel it appropriate that you ingnore routing and sequence in the comparison of courses. To do so is a thwart on one of the greatest hallmarks and design aspects of golf — routing.

« **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2006, 10:59:04 PM »

Quote from: Forrest Richardson on November 22, 2006, 10:29:13 AM

Garland — That was an exciting "round", although I soon became discouraged that "I" was losing to a yardage book.

Quote of the week!

« **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2006, 11:57:01 PM »

Quote from: Forrest Richardson on November 22, 2006, 10:50:02 PM

...
Apples-to-apples...? Really now.

Speaking as an author of an entire book on the subject of Routing, I hardly feel it appropriate that you ingnore routing and sequence in the comparison of courses. To do so is a thwart on one of the greatest hallmarks and design aspects of golf — routing.

Don't forget Forrest, there are crab apples, domesticated apples, delicious apples, all more related than oranges are to apples.

Your book on routing arrived the other day from Amazon. Therefore, I plead ignorance for the time being, but I am making an effort to rectify that.

« **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2006, 12:23:09 AM »

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