[John Kavanaugh]

I've got to go with the first hole at Pinehurst #2...The backdrop of the clubhouse and realitive ease of tee shot on one of the great courses of all time has to be one of the most comfortable holes in golf.

[wsmorrison]

In the world of golf that's all you can think of, John?  The Pinehurst clubhouse is mediocre architecture at best.  The lack of definition on the first hole and flat ground may not be imposing, but this can hardly be mentioned among the best holes, opening or otherwise, for the casual golfer, male or female.  For a non-imposing tee shot with an immensely better background, The Old Course wins hands down!

Why are you trying to figure out the mindset of the casual woman golfer?  Why do you differentiate between the casual female golfer and the casual male golfer?

Great golf course architecture can appeal to all classes of golfers, despite their gender, ability or interest.  Best is subjective.  

[John Kavanaugh]

In the world of golf that's all you can think of, John?  The Pinehurst clubhouse is mediocre architecture at best.  The lack of definition on the first hole and flat ground may not be imposing, but this can hardly be mentioned among the best holes, opening or otherwise, for the casual golfer, male or female.  For a non-imposing tee shot with an immensely better background, The Old Course wins hands down!

I am only going with courses I have played and the first at Pinehurst #2 may be my favorite casual hole in golf.  It is relaxing and inspiring all at once.  I don't understand your opinion that the stuctural and urban layout architecture of Pinehurst is mediocre...I find the entire town to be architectural genius.  It makes me want to lay down and die.

Why do you differentiate between the casual female golfer and the casual male golfer?

Are they not different and thus worthy of differentiation.

[wsmorrison]

I don't know what structural and urban architecture is, but if it is the Pinehust clubhouse, it isn't very appealing--to me.  I think the town of Pinehurst is wonderfully laid out with beautiful buildings, but the clubhouse ain't one of 'em.  On the other hand, I loved the Holly Inn.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wayne,

One of my assumptions about the difference in casual male vs female golfer is that the male is able to carry the ball a greater distance.  I would think the obvious hole being the 16th at Cypress Point.  I have not played the course but would not doubt if the 15th at Cypress may be a better hole for the casual female while the casual male will always choose the 16th even if he is dilusional in his abilities to hit the green.  It is hard to include holes with long forced carries or obtuse up tees in this exercise from an architectural perspective.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wayne, (or anyone else)

Do you think it is important that architects recognize the difference between male and female golfers.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd be curious what golf hole at the Bandon Resort would be the female favorite in your opinion.  Funny thing, of all the pics I took a picture of the 12th at Bandon Dunes ended up as my screen saver.  It is a somewhat straight forward hole with an ocean backdrop and just one nice pot bunker fronting the green.  The one thing I do notice in the design that may not work is that the closer the tee the more the angle of the bunker comes into play.  I wonder if this was a mistake...bringing a harzard more into play from the up tees.

A link:  http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/bandon_hole12.cfm

[Tom_Doak]

John:

A lot of senior male golfers hit the ball 150-180 yards and arrow-straight, too ... it's good to allow for that type whichever gender is playing.

[wsmorrison]

They should recognize the difference in all golfers.  I would think many super seniors and young juniors hit the ball as far as a casual adult female.  The different stages in life for males and females tend to coincide at some point on the time continuum.

I would imagine that you are taking accuracy into account in addition to length in whatever it is you are considering.

[John Goodman]

John:  My casual golfer wife has professed to really liking 7 at Pebble.  It may have been because of the sea, spray and seals, but I think it was because she made a 2 there and I three-putted . . .

She would not cut it on here - she liked Dye Fore better than Teeth of the Dog, thought Yale 9 was just weird, liked Spanish Bay and the Reynolds Plantation courses, all manner of heresy.

[ForkaB]

Same ones as for the casual male and transgender golfers.

Next question.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

A lot of senior male golfers hit the ball 150-180 yards and arrow-straight, too ... it's good to allow for that type whichever gender is playing.

Tom,

I agree, but then wouldn't their wives hit is proportionally shorter.  I think when a female in her late 60's carries the ball that far she must have been an expert at one time and hardly casual.

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone really believe the mentallity and expectations of a 14 year old boy and 64 year old woman are the same.  Can't we agree that from an even an architectural perspective men and women are different.

[Tom_Doak]

John:  Most women are different from most men, yes.  Certainly one of the hardest things to do in architecture is to set up forward tees which all make sense ... some of the most interesting and exciting holes for men just don't have a good place to put a forward tee.

The interesting thing to me about your last statement was not just that a young man and an older woman have different viewpoints of golf architecture -- they also have much different viewpoints of GOLF and why they are out there.  Focusing just on shot values is not so important to either class of player.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:  My casual golfer wife has professed to really liking 7 at Pebble.  It may have been because of the sea, spray and seals, but I think it was because she made a 2 there and I three-putted . . .

She would not cut it on here - she liked Dye Fore better than Teeth of the Dog, thought Yale 9 was just weird, liked Spanish Bay and the Reynolds Plantation courses, all manner of heresy.

John,

That is interesting about Pebble..I have not played the course but thought the 18th would be a favorite...or is it difficult to get around the bend and make the walk home.  My wife would like the Reynolds Plantation courses too if given the choice...most people I know do, male or female.

[John Kavanaugh]

The interesting thing to me about your last statement was not just that a young man and an older woman have different viewpoints of golf architecture -- they also have much different viewpoints of GOLF and why they are out there.  Focusing just on shot values is not so important to either class of player.

Trying not to dig a hole for myself that I can't get out...but, is it safe to say than men (primarily younger) enjoy a risk/reward hole more than women.

[Aaron Katz]

John K.,

You are not delusional, and I think you are correct in this post.  The comment someone made about the 18th on the Old Course was a good one, I think.  

My wife is just starting to play and she can't carry the ball very far, and obviously can't put a lot of spin on it.  For her, the most enjoyable golf holes are ones that are wide and completely open.  The strategy for her comes when the green and its surrounds are closely cropped and provide for interesting bounces.  

I enjoy those types of holes as well, but I enjoy equally a hole that asks for (though does not require) a heroic carry.  For her, those types of holes are pure drudgery, since the heroic carry option is completely out of play and she is left with only a single option, which is to play around the diagonal hazard (a tough chore for a beginner).

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks Aaron...If you are lucky enough to ever teach a son to play golf you will find yourself begging him to not hit another ball into the water and take the long route around.  When I was younger I never met a risk I didn't love or take.

I would love to know if the top female golfers grow up with a different mentallity towards architecture than the top males.  I think every top male played like a crazy man at one time and eventually reels his game in...I get the impression that the top female golfers have always played under control.  This might explain why expert men have better short games than women despite the lack of physical needs to possess one.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Few women golfers hit the ball anything like as high as men.   It can render perfectly straightforward compulsory carries for the men utterly unplayable for the ladies.  I am thinking of the 14th at Wilmslow, a 180-yard forced carry over a deep valley.  The ladies probably play it at 140 yards, but their tee is about 20 feet lower than the men's, because it is further down the downslope.  From there few of the ladies can get the height and distance to reach the green and end up hacking the ball up the far bank in several strokes, turning the hole into a bogey-7 or worse.  It is not a good hole for most ladies.  Those who are able to combine height with length are quite able to get on from the men's back tee.  The drive at the 1st hole is similar - an awful start for the 20+ handicappers.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've got to go with the first hole at Pinehurst #2...The backdrop of the clubhouse and realitive ease of tee shot on one of the great courses of all time has to be one of the most comfortable holes in golf.

JakaB,

In what context would you judge the responses ?

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

In the world of golf course architecture it is a preponderance of men who design the course, build the course and critique the course.  Until that changes we as men have a responsibility to discuss the subject.  I can't see where ignoring or insulting women at every opportunity does any good for golf course architecture or Golfclubatlas in general.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

My wife's 2 favorite holes are both short par3s:

16th at Quintero



8th at Commonwealth National



A hole in one on both for her!

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,

Are they both elevated tees with open greens...what club did she hit and from what yardage.  Congrats to her.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

John

8 at Commonwealth is a short,100y flat hole from the red tees.The green is open on the right side. It's slightly elevated from the whites and blue tees.

16 at Quintero is very similar from the red tees which are slightly to the right in the picture but we didn't see see the ball go in the hole as we knew it was close and watched it for about 30 seconds and then got into the cart and drove to the hole. The cart path is sunken and when we got to the green the ball was not to be seen. I told her a coyote must have taken it.

By the way, if one gets a hole in one Quintero, they send  an embroidered flag of the hole with the date,etc thereon. Very nice touch from them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Thanks. I'll pass it along. She has tied me at 2 although I came very,very close to my third on 7 at Lederach last Friday.

I also think she likes shorter par4s around 250y or so. This gives her a chance to reach the green in 2 shots. Her best drives are in the 150-175y vicinity.

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