[Marty Bonnar]

If you actually take the time to properly READ Darren's opening Post, you will note that the words 'play', 'played', 'playing', or 'player' are not used - not even once.

I choose to interpret that as I do.

TOC #18 is a good to great golf hole, therefore it is a 1.

Must everything here turn into a knob contest?

QFED,
FBD.

[Bill_McBride]

I think it is great but if you took that hole away from where it is and plunked it down on any other course, it certainly would not be considered outstanding.

I would be really interested in seeing how that would be done!

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you never hit a shot just for fun?  Have you never tried a shot out of your comfort zone just because a hole seems to allow for it?

I do it all the time, but, that's not what your average player does.

I probably play more "ginky" shots than the great majority of golfers, I like to be inventive, but, that's not the head set of your average player.

And again, nowhere is this more evident than on #18 TOC.  Most golfers - those with a soul anyway and not playing in formal competition, but particularly visitors - have been told time and time again how cool it is to play a running shot through the valley of sin, and how the Scots look down upon those who stubbornly insist on lobbing shots over it.  Thus when faced with the shot, most try the runner, fully knowing they stink at it and it's WAY out of their comfort zone!

From what distance and under what conditions are they trying to hit a "runner" versus the shot they're far more comfortable with ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Martin my man:

Not to be picky, but I am in that kinda mood.. and you're wrong....

I know the merits of this hole have been discussed here in the past, but not everyone may have seen that discussion, and in any event I'd be interested to actually poll everyone about it - it's a hole that most of us will know fairly well from TV and from seeing it in person (and of course playing it). If you had to pick one of the following options on what you think of the hole, what would you say?

Note bolding added by me.

Thus I choose to interpret it, and answer, based on what it was like when I played it - which would seem to be very much ok per what Darren asked.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, I answered your question with my previous post - I fully agree with you, except with respect to the 18th on TOC.  

How many times have you played TOC with higher handicap players?  How many higher handicap players have you watched play the 18th hole?

Hundreds a day on skycam

I don't buy the argument that the 18th at TOC is the testing or proving grounds for unusual and/or unfamiliar golf shots.

Are you calling me a liar?  

No, just that you've drawn faulty conclusions on an incomplete set of facts.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

My group of 12 included quite a few average, or worse than average, players.  Hell I'm not that far removed from it myself.  So perhaps you failed to read my words... but I said every single one tried the runner.  Some had it for their 3rd shot, but every one tried it.

The conditions and distance really didn't rule the day... once they got where they felt they could reach the green - and that's after the drive for damn near all as I recall - they tried to run it through the valley.  I've already explained why.

TH

[Marty Bonnar]

Huckaby,
Damn your eyes, Man! Now I want ye to go out on to the course and kill all the gophers ye can find....gophers, ya eedjit!

That post of mine is clear evidence of the power of Argentinian Bonarda on the intellectual skills of the average Scotsman.

Now Martin, shut up and stop going OT....

FBD.

[Kirk Gill]

Tom, I am basically in agreement with your argument, but I'm trying to see if I can get at what Mr. Mucci is talking about.

But here's a question to the learned folks on this forum - of all the architects who studied the great holes of Scotland and spread the word around the world, how many of them created holes that emulated the features of the 18th at TOC? I'm not trying to make a point with this question, since I don't know the answer. There are redans all over the world. What about versions of the 18th at TOC ?

[Marty Bonnar]

Kirk,
I feel sure there are more than a few Valleys of Sin around the World.

Of course, any other golf course with Real Estate hard by the OB on the right of the final hole MUST be considered to have been influenced by TOC #18, Shurely?

FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Martin - you're still OK by me.  Any man that provides me with a Belhaven's chapeau can truly never do wrong forevermore.

 

Kirk - oh, I know what Patrick is TRYING to say.  I just think he's wrong; or to put it better, that these types of hypotheticals are worthless if one is really trying to assess what's what, in totality, of a golf hole.

That is a great question, however.  I think TOC as a whole has been the guiding force for many architects... but that 18 as a hole itself is rarely duplicated - because why try?  You never could adequately achieve it.  

I don't think that's any knock on 18 TOC either.. but rather a compliment and a concession to its unique "place", both where it is and in this great game.

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

1

354 yards? Great Hole!!!!

440? Might be the best in the world.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I see I've created a monster!

I think #18 at TOC would be a good hole on any course in the world, at any point in a round, precisely because it offers strategy, risk and reward to golfers of ALL abilities. To quote myself from the thread on the European Club which sparked this one:

--------------
"A 50-yard-wide fairway to an unchallenging green complex is a joke; a 100-yard-wide fairway with OB tight on the side from which by far the best angle of approach can be found can be very interesting. The final hole on the Old Course is a perfect example of this: nobody in their right mind would ever miss the fairway unless either a) you're a long hitter who is suckered into trying to drive the green, or b) you're a high-handcap short hitter who feels there's a significant advantage in trying to take the "shortest distance between two points" line to the green, or even c) you feel the best angle into a given hole location is from the left side of the fairway, but you overdo it and hit a sweeping hook out of bounds. (Some people feel the final hole at TOC is a letdown; I've always felt it is the perfect example of a hole which offers strategic options to *every* golfer, no matter how good or bad, and should be justly celebrated as such.)"
--------------

Thankfully, while I haven't seen many of them in person - one or two holes at Talking Stick North being notable exceptions - I do see and hear that more courses like Rustic Canyon nowadays are employing holes with wide fairways and interesting green complexes and approaches, thereby catering to both the low and high handicapper at once. There are very few holes of this type that I don't like; I suppose if I were a scratch golfer or better who could bomb my drives and spin my wedges so much as to neuter strategy altogether, then I wouldn't be so keen on the type, but thankfully (or not), normal golf courses still challenge me.

Anyway, I would agree that if #18 at TOC were transported to the Arizona desert somewhere, it wouldn't be famous, and it wouldn't be thought of by anyone as a *great* hole. But it would still be a *good* hole, and many more golfers (if attentive enough to the joys of subtle architecture) would be able to honestly appreciate the actual playing of it as well as the analysis of it than is the case at more celebrated holes which are too difficult for them to experience.

Cheers,
Darren

[Andrew Summerell]

The location has everything to do with the hole. The facts are, it is the 18th hole & it is The Old Course. To consider the architectural merits of a hole, if it was on another course in another location, proves very little.

Would the 16th at Cypress Point be a great hole if the ocean wasn’t there? Who cares! The fact of the matter is, the ocean is there.

Would NGLA be great if it was built on heavy clay soil in parkland, somewhere in middle America?

Would the #*%^& bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley be so influential if it was in the middle of the 6th green at Riviera?

The great thing the best golf course architects do is design holes that fit into a particular piece of land. Although the 18th at TOC mostly evolved with the guidance of many hands, it is where it is & is what it is because of where it is.

For me, it’s a 1, & becomes more so the more I play it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The location has everything to do with the hole. The facts are, it is the 18th hole & it is The Old Course. To consider the architectural merits of a hole, if it was on another course in another location, proves very little.

Would the 16th at Cypress Point be a great hole if the ocean wasn’t there? Who cares! The fact of the matter is, the ocean is there.

Andrew, the Ocean is an INTEGRAL part of the 16th at CPC.

Would NGLA be great if it was built on heavy clay soil in parkland, somewhere in middle America?

YES

Would the #*%^& bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley be so influential if it was in the middle of the 6th green at Riviera?

That bunker isn't influential in the play of the hole any more than any of the flanking bunkered areas.

The great thing the best golf course architects do is design holes that fit into a particular piece of land. Although the 18th at TOC mostly evolved with the guidance of many hands, it is where it is & is what it is because of where it is.

For me, it’s a 1, & becomes more so the more I play it.

[Tom_Doak]

Darren:

I think the 18th at St. Andrews is a very good hole, and an EXCELLENT finishing hole, provided that the conditions are firm and fast.  It gives you a chance for a birdie to win but you have to play a finesse shot under pressure in order to get it.  And the fact that the Road hole precedes it, assures that the finish is not "too easy" on balance.

Yes, it's a great setting, and I would love to create something like that someday, somewhere.  It amazes me that no golf community has ever done anything close.  But it is still a very good hole without the setting as a factor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

It can't be the drive that makes it such a good hole, so what about the hole, from the approach on in makes it stand out as being a very good hole and an excellent finishing hole ?

If you replicated the hole on one of your courses, do you think it would be criticized for being bland ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Doak and Huck get it. I love it and do not understand how the concept is not in many other places. N Berwick is somewhat the same in a loose sort of way.

[Andrew Summerell]

The location has everything to do with the hole. The facts are, it is the 18th hole & it is The Old Course. To consider the architectural merits of a hole, if it was on another course in another location, proves very little.

Would the 16th at Cypress Point be a great hole if the ocean wasn’t there? Who cares! The fact of the matter is, the ocean is there.

Andrew, the Ocean is an INTEGRAL part of the 16th at CPC.

Exactly, but some have suggested we take away integral aspects of the site at the 18th at TOC

Would NGLA be great if it was built on heavy clay soil in parkland, somewhere in middle America?

YES

How would you know, seeing as it's a hypothetical argument.

Would the #*%^& bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley be so influential if it was in the middle of the 6th green at Riviera?

That bunker isn't influential in the play of the hole any more than any of the flanking bunkered areas.

The great thing the best golf course architects do is design holes that fit into a particular piece of land. Although the 18th at TOC mostly evolved with the guidance of many hands, it is where it is & is what it is because of where it is.

For me, it’s a 1, & becomes more so the more I play it.

My point is, the site & setting is integral to ever hole, whether it is the 18th at TOC, the 16th at CP or the 4th at the local muni down the street.

Does every Biarritz, Cape or Redan play the same ? In fact, I'm sure you could copy the 15th at NB to the inch & biuld on another site & it would still have some different characteristics.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Would the 16th at Cypress Point be a great hole if the ocean wasn’t there? Who cares! The fact of the matter is, the ocean is there.

Andrew, the Ocean is an INTEGRAL part of the 16th at CPC.

Exactly, but some have suggested we take away integral aspects of the site at the 18th at TOC

How are the clubhouse and buildings on the other side of the
road integral parts of the 18th hole at TOC ?

They are far removed from the architecture and play of the hole.

The Pacific Ocean is the 16th hole at CPC, architecturally and in the play of the hole.[/color]

Would NGLA be great if it was built on heavy clay soil in parkland, somewhere in middle America?

YES

How would you know, seeing as it's a hypothetical argument.

Because, in the absolute, the architecture of the golf course is brilliant, irrespective of the vistas and soil conditions.[/color]

Would the #*%^& bunker on the 10th at Pine Valley be so influential if it was in the middle of the 6th green at Riviera?


More so, because of it's more penal nature compared to the current bunker in the middle of the 6th green.[/color]

My point is, the site & setting is integral to ever hole, whether it is the 18th at TOC, the 16th at CP or the 4th at the local muni down the street.

Does every Biarritz, Cape or Redan play the same ? In fact, I'm sure you could copy the 15th at NB to the inch & biuld on another site & it would still have some different characteristics.

[Kevin Pallier]

Put me down for believing it's a good to great hole (1). I think it's a fine example of a bunkerless hole that uses the Valley of Sin and OOB as great defences. The setting is also superb and I'd prefer it to probably be a little longer but that's just me.

[Andrew Summerell]

Would the 16th at Cypress Point be a great hole if the ocean wasn’t there? Who cares! The fact of the matter is, the ocean is there.

Andrew, the Ocean is an INTEGRAL part of the 16th at CPC.

Exactly, but some have suggested we take away integral aspects of the site at the 18th at TOC

How are the clubhouse and buildings on the other side of the
road integral parts of the 18th hole at TOC ?

They are far removed from the architecture and play of the hole.

The Pacific Ocean is the 16th hole at CPC, architecturally and in the play of the hole.[/color]

I never mentioned the buildings or the clubhouse. I'm more interested in the natural contours of the land & the infinite strategies that can change from day to day.

Would NGLA be great if it was built on heavy clay soil in parkland, somewhere in middle America?

YES

How would you know, seeing as it's a hypothetical argument.

Because, in the absolute, the architecture of the golf course is brilliant, irrespective of the vistas and soil conditions.[/color]

I'm sure I could find some land in Outback Australia where not even the great architecture would see it being referred to as great.

My point is, the site & setting is integral to ever hole, whether it is the 18th at TOC, the 16th at CP or the 4th at the local muni down the street.

Does every Biarritz, Cape or Redan play the same ? In fact, I'm sure you could copy the 15th at NB to the inch & biuld on another site & it would still have some different characteristics.

I actually like the concept of the hole, but I can understand how many may find the idea foreign & difficult to grasp. I believe it comes from a political psyche. Why would the Scottish, having been oppressed by the English for so many hundred years, want to dictate where you should hit the ball. This is the ideal Scottish hole that says, “make your own way, & if my choice is better than yours on the day, I’ll be in the hole before ye.”

[James Bennett]

98 posts, nearly to the bottom of page 3, green ink from Patrick Mucci, and ...

NOT ONE POST FROM TEPaul!

Can anyone help here (perhaps a member of the local club) and invite TEPaul to play this hole with them, so he too can post his views, perhaps supporting or opposing the opinions posted.

James B

[Chris Kane]

No, just that you've drawn faulty conclusions on an incomplete set of facts

And yours are a complete set of facts?  You're digging a hole for yourself Patrick - whats the over/under on how many posts it will take before you're forced to concede and apologise?  

[Pat Ruddy]

One thing is clear ..... good or great or whatever .....we all love St. Andrews.
It is amazing the talk of birdies.
You fellas like birdie chances.....
Who doesn't?

[Brad Klein]

1) Good to Great.

It's like a symphony that resolves itself into a harmonious, receding chord at the end rather than leaving you in some agitated but unresolved state of being. And as Doak indicates, the setting is crucial to its success, since the 18th returns one to town center. The experience is like a wonderful if at times turbulent boat cruise, and the return has you gently easing back to the pier rather than crashing into home port.

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