[Patrick_Mucci]

What other courses besides the National are we talking about here? I don't think it would kill them to host something. I asked the question earlier, maybe you would know.

What was the memberships reaction to hosting in 85?

I don't know.

Maidstone, Seminole, Chicago GC, GCGC, Fisher's Island.
Just go down the list of classic or pre-60's golf courses and you'll see the list.

I don't think the issue is hosting a tournament as most of these clubs hold member, member-guest or invitational events.
The problem lies in the production of a TV event and everything that goes with it including political correctness.
Why should a club that prefers to remain low key suddenly thrust itself onto the radar screen ?  It would bring more headaches than you can imagine.

What are the downsides to TV and PV? I have thought about it and didn't come up with any answers. Couldn't they donate the TV money to one or many of the aforementioned charities? I imagine the audience would be substanial.

I doubt that any of the clubs that you'd be interested in viewing are in dire need of money.  In addition, if a club derives a certain percentage of their revenues from an outside event, they lose their strictly private status.

The downsides are that the club gets placed under a microscope for every issue under the sun, and that the members would lose the use of the golf course for a week or more.  PV's membership isn't one that lives within 5 minutes of the club.  Many have to travel a good distance to play there, hence, blocking out a week would be inconvenient.
PV already hosts the Crump Cup, why would they want to host another event ?  The Walker Cup ?  Maybe.

National would be fine by me, I think they are in the same boat as Pine Valley.

NGLA was considered for a Walker Cup, but, unfortunately, it was awarded to Merion.   Perhaps an upcoming Walker Cup is in the stars  

Match Play? The golf course would be the show. Amateur Match Play is usually more competitive than the pros. I think it would fare quite well.

With match play you might never see the 16th, 17th and 18th holes.  I think a Walker Cup is the likely selection and a possibility.

I think Martha has learned her lesson and learned it well.

There's always a new gunslinger trying to earn a rep, just waiting to take their turn.   There's too much downside.
And remember, the 1985 Walker Cup was Pre-Shoal Creek.

[Glenn Spencer]

Thank you Patrick!!!!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Glenn,

One final thought. What do we (you) owe to Merion, Shinnecock, Oakmont andWinged Foot. With the logistics of TV and US Open infrastructure, WF effectively give up the use of the The East course for a season or so. Yes Winged Foot got money to update The East, but is that enough? The members could not bring guest before The US Open. The course is famous regardless of 2006, so do you owe Winged Foot and the others anything for bringing a TV event to their course?

Once again, me personally, I would not want to go through all the hassels of having a TV tournament at my course, but it was fun to attend, and it is always fun to play there, thanks to the members.

[Glenn Spencer]

Mike,

Good Question. For me, in Cincinnati. I owe Winged Foot(among otheres) quite a few things. I think that I owe them the respect of watching the tournaments that are played there on television. I owe them, knowing the history of the place and what has happened there, from Jones and Espinosa to Zoeller and Norman and now Mickelson. I owe them my knowing that our game and National Championships would not have become what they are without them. If live there, I owe them support for the Anderson Memorial? if spectators are allowed. Realizing how lucky I am to have played it, if I have played there and complete respect once on the property for what they have meant to the game. They were there for the game, when it wasn't as finacially beneficial to be there and that shouldn't be forgotten.

[Glenn Spencer]

While I tend to think that many American clubs are a bit over-zealous about guarding their privacy I in no way can believe that any club except my own owes me anything.  

Ciao

An important side note to my above statement is that I don't Pine Valley anything.  Its a bit of an indifferent two way street, but that sadly is how many clubs want traffic to flow.

Ciao

I feel that I owe Pine Valley, but not like Winged Foot. I owe Pine Valley for putting all kinds of ideas in my head about getting good enough to play at courses like that and practicing and having something to look forward to. I owe Pine Valley, because it has supplied some wonderful stories, from Platt to Palmer to hearing about how some people I know have hacked it up.

[Glenn Spencer]

While I tend to think that many American clubs are a bit over-zealous about guarding their privacy I in no way can believe that any club except my own owes me anything.  

Ciao

An important side note to my above statement is that I don't Pine Valley anything.  Its a bit of an indifferent two way street, but that sadly is how many clubs want traffic to flow.

Ciao

I feel that I owe Pine Valley, but not like Winged Foot. I owe Pine Valley for putting all kinds of ideas in my head about getting good enough to play at courses like that and practicing and having something to look forward to. I owe Pine Valley, because it has supplied some wonderful stories, from Platt to Palmer to hearing about how some people I know have hacked it up.

Glenn

Thats fair enough.  I spose I am not as sentimental about these things unless I can experience it first hand.  Its a shame, but I will probably always feel I owe much more to the the top clubs in GB&I because they do allow schmucks such as myself to drop in for a game and a pint.  

I know some think it is only membership greed, but I disagree.  I do think there is a sense of noblesse oblige prevalent at many of the clubs in GB&I.  Look at the thread about Pat Ruddy's club.  I know TEC is a business, but I bet Pat would describe it as much, much more than that.  He strikes me as a man who is damn proud to show off his course and rightly so.

Ciao

Nice Post. I am not in the group that thinks of GB&I's practices as membership greed.

[George Pazin]

It's pretty difficult to not infer that you are not that interested in the architecture if you turn down an opportunity to walk a course. Not impossible, but difficult.

Sorry, that's just more than one man's opinion. I almost posted it before Tim, but thought better of it. The only reason I'm saying it now is that I don't think you can fairly call Tim's statement stupid.

There was a thread a week or two ago about courses a student of architecture must see, and a related one about public courses a student must see, and in one of them, Tom D related his experience with writing letters to members, and stated that he felt part of his success was due to the fact that he was willing to walk the course at odd times.

The strip club analogy is far from perfect.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble & Glenn

American clubs are subject to American laws.
Our legal system differs from that of the UK

As to the issue of spectators, at the Crump, Anderson, or any other tournament, you can't ignore the issue of liability.

As a club member, would you want to expose yourself to the financial risk inherent in having non-members roaming the property.

At special events, be they in Madison Square Garden or at a U.S. Open, when you purchase a ticket, in most cases you waive legal liability against the host/sponsor, including the owner/promoter of the facility and event.

That doesn't happen when you open your doors to the public.

I'm not saying that the issue can't be resolved, only that there's a lot more involved than you think, including risks.  And, most clubs don't want that involvement, there's very little upside to it.

[Glenn Spencer]

It's pretty difficult to not infer that you are not that interested in the architecture if you turn down an opportunity to walk a course. Not impossible, but difficult.

Sorry, that's just more than one man's opinion. I almost posted it before Tim, but thought better of it. The only reason I'm saying it now is that I don't think you can fairly call Tim's statement stupid.

There was a thread a week or two ago about courses a student of architecture must see, and a related one about public courses a student must see, and in one of them, Tom D related his experience with writing letters to members, and stated that he felt part of his success was due to the fact that he was willing to walk the course at odd times.

The strip club analogy is far from perfect.

George,

You act like I am just right down the street from Pine Valley. Have you ever seen me say that I am planning on being the next Tom Doak or being an architect? No. If I don't want to walk around Pine Valley without playing ( the only course I said that about) it is my decision and it has nothing to do with my appreciation of architecture. I don't have the skills to be an architect. There is a lot more to my reasoning about not wanting to walk Pine Valley than you know, but please don't let that get in the way of you casting your aspersions and telling me what I think about golf course architecture. Tim Weiman's post was a dumb one, yours is no different.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

I think Tim Weiman was right.  But Glenn is also... I think it comes down to living near there or travelling there for a purpose.  That is, if I lived in Philadelphia area, heck yeah I'd make an effort to attend the Crump Cup.  I'd enjoy seeing the course and the great players and figure it's all I could do.  To stretch the analogy, if would be like living next to a fantasy strip club where Jennifer Aniston performs nightly.  Yeah, it's not preferred, but eventually I believe I'd check it out.  

Now re the Crump, I would be gritting my teeth a bit at seeing such a place and not being able to play... but with little effort required, I'd get over it.

But as for Tim's statement in general, well... I feel that the strip club analogy works perfectly for lovers of the game who make no pretense about being students of architecture.  It does fail for those students, however.  OF COURSE they would relish walking any course worth studying.

But we are not all students of architecture, my friend... at least not primarily... I think for me it goes about 95% lover of the game, 5% student of this esoteric part of it.

So no way do I travel all that way just to walk the course - that would be a form of hell.  

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

Sean Arble & Glenn

American clubs are subject to American laws.
Our legal system differs from that of the UK

As to the issue of spectators, at the Crump, Anderson, or any other tournament, you can't ignore the issue of liability.

As a club member, would you want to expose yourself to the financial risk inherent in having non-members roaming the property.

At special events, be they in Madison Square Garden or at a U.S. Open, when you purchase a ticket, in most cases you waive legal liability against the host/sponsor, including the owner/promoter of the facility and event.

That doesn't happen when you open your doors to the public.

I'm not saying that the issue can't be resolved, only that there's a lot more involved than you think, including risks.  And, most clubs don't want that involvement, there's very little upside to it.

Patrick,

I am in no way trying to be difficult, but how is my mom or girlfriend following me at a tournament any different? How about the US Open Sectionals? I went to Double Eagle to watch a buddy and there were probably about 1500? people there. Just drive your car up and watch the golf, no tickets or anything. This was in aobut 2002, so I don't know if that has changed. Oh, also, I was at Shaker Run for Michelle Wie and it was the same practice, of course that place was public.

[George Pazin]

Glenn, I know you're interested in architecture, from your posts on the board, but unfortunately for you, I'm not the one making the decisions as to who plays where and who hosts what tournament.

I understand your point, I'm just saying you might consider putting a little more effort into understanding Tim's - and mine.

 

Huck, it's a 6 hour drive for me, a 6 hour flight for you. If it weren't for my wife and son, I'd happily attend every Crump Cup.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

Well, you are FAR more of a student of architecture than I am, my friend.  If I were single and rich and lived where you did, I'd still make no effort to attend the Crump Cup.  

Hopefully you do understand the different perspectives.  I know you do.  As I say, Tim is right... but his point is more limited than it would otherwise seem.

TH

[George Pazin]

That's just because you're a mean SOB.

 

On a side note, can we at least all agree that the world would be a far nicer place if I did make all the decisions about who plays where and who hosts what tournament?

[Tom Huckaby]

Couldn't agree more... with ALL of that.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am in no way trying to be difficult, but how is my mom or girlfriend following me at a tournament any different?

It's risk related.
The greater the exposure (spectators) the greater the risk (liability)

With 5,000 spectators there's a greater likelihood of a problem than with just two, or twenty or two hundred.

How about the US Open Sectionals? I went to Double Eagle to watch a buddy and there were probably about 1500? people there. Just drive your car up and watch the golf, no tickets or anything.

That's part of the problem.
If there was a ticket, it could state that attendance automatically waives liabilty.  Absent a ticket, or written statement of policy, the club is a target for various liabilities.

Golf clubs are perceived as having deep pockets.
Who gets sued, entities in bankruptcy, or profitable entities ?

It's an attractive nuisance and the clubs would prefer not to expose themselves.  You can't blame them.

This was in aobut 2002, so I don't know if that has changed.

I don't think much has changed.

Oh, also, I was at Shaker Run for Michelle Wie and it was the same practice, of course that place was public.

I'm not up on the law, but, I always thought it was difficult to sue municipalities.  Or, maybe their insurance coverage included the general public.

But, I do know that when outsiders, non-members are on property, it's an additional risk for the club.

Some clubs will NO LONGER host sweet 16 parties due to underage drinking and the consequences of same.

Why ?  Because the liability is so great.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn, I know you're interested in architecture, from your posts on the board, but unfortunately for you, I'm not the one making the decisions as to who plays where and who hosts what tournament.

I understand your point, I'm just saying you might consider putting a little more effort into understanding Tim's - and mine.

 

Huck, it's a 6 hour drive for me, a 6 hour flight for you. If it weren't for my wife and son, I'd happily attend every Crump Cup.

George:

Thank you and I am sure you mean well, but why would I want to put more effort into understanding the comments of someone who just read one thing that I said and then thought that he knew everything about my appreciation for architecture after reading that one comment?

Here is what I will say. I could see myself either driving or flying to Philly and having dinner at D'Angelos and having a fee cheesesteaks, playing golf and maybe going to a game and then going to the Crump Cup on Sunday, but that is only if I can find 3 or 4 friends that would  be interested in that type of weekend. Otherwise, I am not going to go by myself and walk around all day wishing that I was playing. My grandfather would always tease me about the place and say I would never play there, my dumb 13-year old mind assured him that I would.

[Tom Dunne]

Glenn,

Okay, I hear you that a dedicated trip to the Crump Cup from wherever you are would be a drag. But it's not exactly the only great course in the Philly area--you could always find an excuse to come up and check out a few other courses/clubs before or after the event. Might take the sting off not being able to play PV.

The other thing is, even if there were a televised event, the medium wouldn't do Pine Valley justice at all. The course is special enough that I wouldn't hold an awful lot of stock in people's judgements of it just based on what they saw on TV. I feel the same way about Augusta Nat'l, incidentally. Sure, I see it on TV every year, but I've never felt overly comfortable talking about it because I've never been to the Masters and actually walked the land.

I happen to really enjoy walking a good golf course, preferably with a friend who has an eye for architectural features. I had the chance to walk Sebonack before it opened with a colleague, and we took about 3 1/2 hours just soaking it in. And it was a really nice way to spend an afternoon. But that's just me....

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Dunne - it's far from just you - you are the norm in this forum - walking courses and soaking them in seems to be done all the time.  Glenn and I are the weird ones.

Just understand that out in the real world though, the roles reverse.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

Patrick:

Thank you again!!! You did kind of lose me on the Double Eagle thing though. There was no ticket, that part I am sure of. Does this mean that they were taking that big of a risk with all of those people out there? Was the USGA at risk? Was the Columbus District Golf Association at risk? 1500 was the least amount, it could have been 3 thousand for all I know. It is escaping me, why it was so packed, but it was crowded. Nicklaus was watching his son, maybe that was it. Of course, I didn't go anywhere near him, because I did not want my short game to suffer.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

Okay, I hear you that a dedicated trip to the Crump Cup from wherever you are would be a drag. But it's not exactly the only great course in the Philly area--you could always find an excuse to come up and check out a few other courses/clubs before or after the event. Might take the sting off not being able to play PV.

The other thing is, even if there were a televised event, the medium wouldn't do Pine Valley justice at all. The course is special enough that I wouldn't hold an awful lot of stock in people's judgements of it just based on what they saw on TV. I feel the same way about Augusta Nat'l, incidentally. Sure, I see it on TV every year, but I've never felt overly comfortable talking about it because I've never been to the Masters and actually walked the land.

I happen to really enjoy walking a good golf course, preferably with a friend who has an eye for architectural features. I had the chance to walk Sebonack before it opened with a colleague, and we took about 3 1/2 hours just soaking it in. And it was a really nice way to spend an afternoon. But that's just me....

Tom:

Good Stuff!! I am in no way saying that I am correct in saying that I wouldn't prefer to walk it. I am saying that for that particular course, I am playing it or I am not seeing it. Chances are with most other courses, if I was in a town and a walking opportunity presented itself, I would take it. Also, the competition part of the Crump Cup hits a sore spot. At 16, I could play a little and if you told me that I would not be good enough to play in an amateur invitational like the Crump Cup, I would have thought you were crazy. Walking around and seeing someone do what I feel had plenty of talent to do, would not be a riot for me. It would frustrate me that my game is a shell of what it could have been.

These are examples of the different reasons that I would not want to attend the Crump Cup, but I am glad that people were able to throw their stupid comments about my appreciation of architecture in anyway.

[Tom Dunne]

Glenn, fair enough, absolutely. I'm certainly not in that position at all--I admire the players in the CC partly because I know I'll never have anything even remotely resembling their game, but much more so for the spirit with which the event is contested. The other thing that's pretty cool about it is seeing players as different as Trip Kuehne and Buddy Marucci manage the course's challenges in their own way. But I could see how it would be harder for a talented player to watch, no doubt....

[Doug Ralston]

It is obvious that PV does not 'owe' those outside anything, in any legal sense.

It is as clear to me that the tobacco industry has a right to sell their product to their addicts.

In both of these cases the 'begged' question is not if they MUST, but if they SHOULD.

R J Reynolds is breaking no law, but it is clear to me that they still SHOULD cease and desist. Especially now, with their gigantic diversity, when losing the tobacco part of their business would not be at all fatal for them [as keeping it is for so many others]. I do not expect that they WILL show that kind of integrity; it is amazing how easily humans rationalize what they desire.

Pine Valley is breaking no law/rule by keeping their course under wraps. They do NOT have to let us see, but it is clear to me that they SHOULD. While no deaths result from their selfish behavior, there is a loss such as would be if the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens or other human creation extremis was hidden by right of privacy. "Mine! Mine!" says the child, who has something it values too much to share.

Pictures? Why not? That is just the snickering greed of self-agrandization!

But they certainly do not HAVE TO!

Doug

[Jim Nugent]

Doug, I don't think PV owes anything in a moral or ethical sense either.  It is their private property.  We have no ethical claim on it.  

Wouldn't surprise me if that kind of thinking has often led to legal action, either.  i.e. is "should" often a first step that later ends up as "legally has to"?

   

[Doug Ralston]

Jim,

Ownership society leads all to believe that personal property means the same as control unlimited. Would you WANT someone with great wealth to BUY control of such wonders are The Taj, Pyramids etc? What about natural wonders like the Grand Canyon, Crater Lake? What next? The Moon? Why not?

I must tell you that I DO think there should be a limit on how much of the World's heritage should be individually owned. I think we have gone FAR overboard allowing individuals to own stupendous art pieces and such, taking them from public appreciation. Do you know that 2 japanese investors own more than 1/2 the Stradivarius violins and cellos, and there are hidden for safety so NO ONE can enjoy/appreciate their astouding quality of sound!

Is Pine Valley actually owned by it's members? Should the best of THIS art form also be kept from public enjoyment/appreciation, EVEN TO THE POINT OF DENYING PICTURES? No way!

Doug

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