[Steve_ Shaffer]

See www.geoffshackelford.com for breaking news about his entry into golf course design!

[Jeff_Mingay]

The announcement leaves out a very important fact: who'll be doing the actual design work while Woods continues to finetune his game, and collect major championships?

If I was a potential client willing to pay millions and millions of US dollars for Woods' services, I'll need to know that first!

[Evan_Green]

thats a good point Jeff, but do you really think Tiger would put his solid gold name on something that didnt meet his standards? I'd be surprised if he didn't have good people working for him. But I guess you never know.

[TEPaul]

About a year ago I menitoned on here that a guy told me he had absolutely undeniable evidence that someone tried to pay Woods $20 mil just to lend his name to a golf design project and Tiger took a pass. He was also providing some input on a project in Boston but his input was anything but direct. His words and ideas were just sort of past along very indirectly, if you know what I mean.

I'd be very interested to see what Tiger Woods true take on golf architecture would be, however, since at least he seems to have an appreciation for such as TOC and its basic architectural philosophy.

[Neal_Meagher]

Jeff,

While that was the very first thing I also wondered about, you and I, and possibly a few dozen others on this august discussion group, are in the minority with that one.

Thinking about it from the developers point of view, they are loathe to even admit that anybody else other than the "star" had any design input whatsoever.  Jim Lipe, Chris Cochran and others are gifted designers for Jack Nicklaus, but its the nameplate that gets the attention.  Greg Norman, Gary Player and Nick Faldo have done a wonderful job of hiring designers with the ability to carry out their visions for what are usually pretty good pieces of ground.

But it is interesting to see how the older and more established star firms are adjusting to the natural aging process, with Jack Jr. being brought to the fore more and more and with all new Palmer projects crediting the actual co-designer within that firm in anticipation of, well, life does have a beginning and an end.

But whoever Tiger Woods hires to carry out his vision I am sure that those individuals will be talented beyond reason because I think we all must admit that Tiger doesn't tolerate anything but the very best.  And with what I am sure his market worth for such projects will be, it darn well should be the very, very best.....well whatever that is.  Which brings up the subject of what will a Tiger Woods course look, play and feel like.  I am sure that will be an ongoing topic for this group.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Evan,

I should have asked the question - who's supporting Woods in this venture? - with a more serious tone. Because I am interested to know who's on his design staff.

Reminds me of a favourite story:
We're all fond of Ben Crenshaw. Well, it's Coore (first) and Crenshaw (second) for a reason; which is pretty cool on Ben's part. In other words, Bill's importance is reflect in the company's name. That was calculated right out of the gate.

[Jeff_Mingay]

You're right, Neal. I understand. (Still interested to know who'll be working with him though!)

We need to talk... I'm traveling all day tomorrow; I'll give you a ring if you're in the office. Let me know.

[TEPaul]

"We're all fond of Ben Crenshaw. Well, it's Coore (first) and Crenshaw (second) for a reason; which is pretty cool on Ben's part. In other words, Bill's importance is reflect in the company's name. That was calculated right out of the gate."

Jeff:

Not exactly. It was actually Ben who first asked Bill to partner with him in architecture. Unbelievably Bill said he would but only if Ben really did participate completely. That's pretty amazing when you think where Bill was and where Ben was when this happened over twenty years ago. And if you watch them together they are about as much like one person or a total symbiosis as two people can get. Certainly Bill spends much more time at it but that's not really the point, I don't think. You have to see them together to undertand why. I doubt they even have to be together anymore---they can probably do it on the phone. I think they understand it each other that well.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

All I meant was, I had heard that putting Coore's name first was calculated... typically, I think, the PGA Tour pro would be listed first.

Not really applicable to the conversation here, but an interesting tidbit nonetheless  

[Peter Galea]

putting Coore's name first...

Alphabetical order?

[Aaron Katz]

I honestly have no idea what a Tiger course will look like.  He's certainly given us mixed signals:  He's called The Old Course his favorite place to play golf, and he's professed a love of imaginative play (I won't say ground game, because I have rarely seen him bounce a full shot into a green).  Certainly based on that you'd expect some width to the fairways, as well as lots of contours and close-cut areas around the greens.

But he's also called Firestone one of his favorite courses in the world, and that's about as far from TOC as you can get.  

Another complicating factor is that we have no idea as to whether Tiger will be designing stand alone courses or real estate developments.  If he's doing the latter, it's tough to see how an Old Course type design could be achieved.

I won't be surprised it Tiger concentrates on the public course market first, trying to do a Rustic Canyon type thing.  I think he's genuinely interested in growing the game at the middle-class level.

[Bob_Huntley]

But he's also called Firestone one of his favorite courses in the world, and that's about as far from TOC as you can get.  

Aaron,

If you listened to Gary Player speak about the courses after each of his nine Majors and 165 other wins, you would be quite amazed how many of them were the toughest and best he had ever played.

Hyperbole from the top players is a given.

Bob

[George_Williams]

Tiger is represented by IMG and they have their own in-house design office headed by Brit Stenson, so, it would make sense that they would handle it rather than him "hiring" someone to work with him- don't y'all think? ........

[Dan_Callahan]

Where does Tiger get the reputation of not tolerating anything but the very best?

Buick? When someone wins the lottery, I don't often see them run out to buy a Buick when they are looking for the best.

Nike? Clothing is okay. The shoes fall apart faster than any other brand I've tried. The clubs are okay, although again, I don't see many people claiming they are a premium brand.

[Jeff_Mingay]

George,

Good point. I forgot about IMG Design, and Brit Stenson. You're probably right.

[rgkeller]

Woods will get very very big bucks for courses in the Far East.

The high end market for US courses is saturated.

Except, of course, for the Tiger Woods Residence Club.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Add American Express to your list. If Coca-Cola paid TW his 10-20M he would have showed for the Tour Championship.

I doubt TW will be reworking Cobbs Creek pro bono as his first project.

Steve

[Paul Jones]

This was a paragraph from his tigerwoods.com newsletter:

"I also want to let you know that I have started a new company called Tiger Woods Design. I have always wanted to create my own golf courses around the world and am thrilled to embark on this new opportunity. I've played golf in more than 20 countries and look forward to sharing my first-hand knowledge and experience by designing fun, interesting and playable courses for golfers of all abilities. I'll keep you posted on our progress."

[Rick Shefchik]

He's a smart guy, with talent coming out of his ears and a work ethic second to none. If this was what he chose to concentrate on for the next 20 years, I have no doubt he'd be great at it.

But Tiger's other distractions are far too great, in my opinion, for him to become a first-class GCA in his spare time. It can't be that easy, even for the Chosen One.

Despite an artistic success here and there (Muifield Village, Cabo), it took Nicklaus decades to get the hang of things, and that was when his playing career (and parenting duties) were essentially behind him. Besides, I don't think the bar was anywhere near as high when Nicklaus embarked on his architectural career as it will be for Tiger. Nicklaus had no C&C or Doak to measure up to -- or be inspired by.

I wish Tiger well and hope he doesn't crank out a bunch of lousy courses, but I fear this could be the first taint on his otherwise spotless professional resume.

Let's put it this way: If Tiger can design courses as well as Fazio or Reese Jones, that should be considered a remarkable accomplishment.

[Rick Shefchik]

As for Tiger praising both TOC and Firestone, I think that's a good sign (if you can discount the Gary Player hyperbole factor).

Nothing wrong with a would-be architect enjoying a variety of golf course styles, and trying to incorporate the best of each style into his own -- if he's able to do it.

[Tom_Doak]

I believe Tiger Woods will be very good at golf course design.  The rest of us are sort of baffled trying to figure out how to build a golf course to test the game of someone like Tiger; I suspect he has some insight into how to do it.

But, just like golf, golf architecture is a craft that takes time to learn.  I'm a lot better at it now than I was 15 years ago, and it will take a while for Tiger to become proficient -- unless he partners with someone who's already very good.  And time will always be an issue for Tiger, how much does he want to spend on golf course design vs. his other interests and commitments?

I can't imagine that Tiger will just use the IMG Design office to help him, the same guys who help fellow pros.  He will want to be better at it than they are, so he will want to cultivate his own talented help, the same as Nicklaus or Greg Norman or any other pros who have made a mark in design.

[John_Conley]

Tom,

All I meant was, I had heard that putting Coore's name first was calculated... typically, I think, the PGA Tour pro would be listed first.

Couples & Bates
Lehman/Fought
Bella Colina is designed by Faldo (despite Smyers actually doing the work)
Avocet at Wild Wing is designed by Larry Nelson (despite Brauer)
Credit for Grande Dunes' Members Course goes to Nick Price (instead of Craig Schreiner)

Yeah, it certainly isn't the norm.  Ben has a grass named after him but not even his own design boutique!

[John_Conley]

I believe Tiger Woods will be very good at golf course design.  The rest of us are sort of baffled trying to figure out how to build a golf course to test the game of someone like Tiger; I suspect he has some insight into how to do it.

Really?  Doesn't everyone know how to test the game of Tiger?  I thought the breakdown was that nobody knew how to test Tiger yet make it a course John Conley and Tom Doak could get around.

The contributions of 'equal' icons Nicklaus (chocolate drops galore at Loxahatchee or Grand Cypress) and Palmer (rock-faced ponds guarding greens) hardly separated their work from the industry norm.  If Tiger's firm is half as good as Jerry Pate's I'll be very impressed.  Best of luck to Tiger.  From observation it is very difficult to design a course praised by all golfers.  I wish him well.

Best news for Tiger?  If this design thing doesn't work out he always can fall back on Plan B.

[Jeff_Mingay]

... which leads back to my original question, Tom: who's working for him? I'm interested to know.

Also, I agree: we must assume Tiger has some insight. And, I would hope he'd go a different route than just using the IMG staff (no offense to those guys; it's only to say that I hope he's put some thought into who he'd like to work with).

We'll see.

[Tim Copeland]

Just a guess...but since he has consulted with Nicklaus...I say he uses Nicklaus' support staff and ends up getting one of Jack's guys to go with him.

Either that...... or he uses Ernies support staff


Just a guess

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