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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2006, 11:28:26 PM »
Just about every golfer that I know, made some sacrifice to get a few clubs to play golf. The programs currently in vogue are going to cause more frustration when these youngsters have to fend for themselves when wanting a place to play.

When adults with a do good programme get involved with children's sports, no one benefits.

Go to any place in Europe, South America or Asia where football is king and you see kids playing the game with a couple of coats for goals and no adults trying to tell them what to do. If youngsters want to play golf they will find a way. They don't need an organization where the son of a former heavyweight champion gets a quarter of a million dollar salary to head the cheerleding squad.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2006, 11:30:07 PM »
Aaron Katz:

Let me try to get this straight. Obviously you must be from somewhere around Boston but these kids that should be given free golf by the USGA should never think about showing their faces at some clubs like Myopia or Brookline.

Please, somebody tell me I'm wrong or tell me there is something seriously f...ed up with this equation of the USGA trying to take free golf into the ghetto as Aaron Katz just explained it or rationalized it or whatever the hell you want to call it.

About three hours ago I said a few times I didn't think it was the place or the thing for the USGA to pump their resources into. Now I'm completely convinced of it.

Aaron Katz

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2006, 11:44:49 PM »
I feel like you are very much twisting my words now.  

Here's what I believe from my experience:  Right now, the kids that the First Tee program (or whatever similar program) is aimed at would not be warmly welcomed at places like The Country Club.  At the very least, the welcome mat is not out as I see it.  And I think that is a horrible thing, but it is part of the NIMBY and white flight culture that I think we live in.

Do I think that that might change somewhat if we imported golf back into the city?  I think maybe yes.  And that is why I think that the best start to all of this is introducing the game to the kids in their own back yards.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2006, 11:47:39 PM by Aaron Katz »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2006, 11:52:47 PM »

Here's what I believe from my experience:  Right now, the kids that the First Tee program (or whatever similar program) is aimed at would not be warmly welcomed at places like The Country Club.  At the very least, the welcome mat is not out as I see it.  And I think that is a horrible thing, but it is part of the NIMBY and white flight culture that I think we live in.



Aaron,

I don't think The Country Club has the welcome mat for just about anyone, least of all for children from some program that smacks of hypocrisy from top to bottom. I'll wager a small bet that Tim Finchem has never hosted a bunch of kids to his own private club.

Bob

TEPaul

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2006, 11:57:57 PM »
Aaron:

Let's just say I appreciate your opinions and certainly that your willing to state them to me (that's very important), even if I don't agree with them right now. This is probably what has always happened when young people and old people have tried to talk. But I say, let's continue to try to talk.

Aaron Katz

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2006, 12:05:00 AM »
Bob,

I agree 100% with that, and I don't mean to knock a place like The Country Club in particular.  It's rampant everywhere.  That's why we absolutely need to give these kids a cheap place to play -- and best of all a place of their own (a six or nine hole course meant for kids, beginners, etc.).  I don't understand the uproar if something like this is publicly funded, or funded through the USGA, PGA, or PGA Tour.  And I don't understand the conflation between this and "getting parents involved, which never works."  I don't see these types of programs as creating an environment of parents pushing kids into something they don't want to do.  I have little concern about a non-golfing parent suddenly getting "too interested" in their kids golf activities at the local First Tee course.  

I'm not sure how many of you were products of public golf programs, but I know I was.  I'll say it again:  I was allowed to play golf FOR FREE in Tucson, Arizona at ANY of the city's courses so long as I passed an etiquette class.  I played thousands of rounds at no charge from ages 7 to 18 as a member of this program.  My mom would drop me off in the morning every day during the summer.  She would go to work while I played golf.  I could not have learned the game any other way.

TEPaul

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2006, 12:07:58 AM »
"I'll wager a small bet that Tim Finchem has never hosted a bunch of kids to his own private club."

You know Bob, I was talking to a guy who is at the top of his game at the USGA, and actually has been for about twenty years. Not that long ago we were talking about The Creek Club where Joe Dye belonged and he was telling me that in some fashion he must have asked or implied to Dye when he ran the USGA that he might come and play The Creek and perhaps even do a bit of USGA business while playing there with Dye.

Dye informed him thusly; "Young man, that is not possible.That is the club I belong to and you may not come there."

Times most certainly do change, I hope, but I hope they do change intelligently.  ;)

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2006, 01:56:34 AM »
What are these kids supposed to do when they turn 18?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2006, 03:32:09 AM »
Just about every golfer that I know, made some sacrifice to get a few clubs to play golf. The programs currently in vogue are going to cause more frustration when these youngsters have to fend for themselves when wanting a place to play.

When adults with a do good programme get involved with children's sports, no one benefits.

Go to any place in Europe, South America or Asia where football is king and you see kids playing the game with a couple of coats for goals and no adults trying to tell them what to do. If youngsters want to play golf they will find a way. They don't need an organization where the son of a former heavyweight champion gets a quarter of a million dollar salary to head the cheerleding squad.

Bob

I agree with you Bob.  I am not sure why there is this constant desire to "grow" the game.  The folks that want to play golf will naturally gravitate toward the game - often leter in life whebn opportunities in other sports are limited.  I am not saying folks shouldn't pitch, but over the long run I don't think these initiatives make much difference.  

I wonder how many golfers in the world started as caddies?  I am betting a very small percentage.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2006, 06:17:31 AM »
Steve Lapper,

Can you be sure that your position on this issue isn't more of a reflection on your personal views of the USGA, rather than your views on how to best move in the right direction ?

Pat,

   I can't be 1000% sure (and that's the sole reason I'm not sitting here clothed in a robe, hearing cases right now). Yet, I can be sure that the USGA  (& PGA) has fallen woefully short of intelligently using it's massive resources to better the game for everyone, regardless of position in life. I do know that serving as one of the game's elite institutions demands responsibility for it's future. If any of these institutions can earn tens of millions every year by virtue of begging the public for contributions. charging $5 for a hot dog, or $40 for a branded Teddy Bear or other merchandise, then it can certainly afford to reach down to the underprivileged and find a way to assist. That's not personal, that's just a chain of responsibility that appears to have been severed & ignored for quite some time. Please don't try to convince me that coming into Pebble Beach, Pinehurst, Bethapge or Torrey Pines is enough. Have they ever gone to Split Rock, Rancho Park, or Jackson Park turned those tracks into jewels, all while subsidizing free public access for those unable to afford the fees? They can and should do more (side-by-side or behind local and state gov't mandates and initiatives works just fine)!

Bob Huntley,

   While I rarely differ with your wisdom and philosophy on most topics, I can't find a way to believe that kids here will "find a way" so easily. Perhaps they can pick up a rake or shovel and imitate the game on a scruffy dirt lot, but the scarity of acceptable property and supervised, yet accessible space along with some equipment all conspire to make the game "out of reach" for most inner-city and even exurban youth. Sure, theose kids with a burning desire or love will find the sacrifice palatable, but they are an absolute minority in this country and the competition from other organized sports does little to incentivize them to continue such an individual pursuit (unless of course they are being pushed to use it a college "hook.")

Sean Arble,

   There is an absolute need to "grow the game," if for no other reason than to raise the next generation's stewards of our beloved and hallowed grounds. Do you really think that there is enough budding interest to produce hundreds/thoudands of Jordan Walls spread wide enough to care enough not to plow over some Ross/Flynn/Tilly 2nd tier links off the beaten track?

   The game is flat-to-dying on a statistical basis over here and is projected to shrink considerably once the steady wave of the retiring baby-boomers stops. In fact, the NGF is privately warning many of it's constituents to examine alternative activities in order to attract a new customer base. That hasn't had to happen since the 1940's (and only for period of WWII). Intitiatives do matter...just ask the Tiger Woods or First Tee foundations. There are tens of thousands of kids out there who's lives we might be able to influence if introduced to golf's values. Just doing this one or two more than not will go far to making a positive difference. With two tiny daughters under my care with an ugly world ahead, that goal is crucial.

All my ranting is really directed at ALL the institutions associated with guardianship of this game. ALL of them owe something to the pursuit of making the game more accessible and more available to anyone who has the interest. That, IMHO, is direct derivative of the honorable values and principles on which the game is founded and conducted. It is also a contribution that the game is capable of giving back to our oft-flawed society and social fabric. There, I'm done ::)
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2006, 06:57:14 AM »
I am all in favor of caddie programs as a form of social engineering, but I am highly skeptical that it can be an answer on anything like the scale suggested.  Too many golfers have grown up with carts and they seem unwilling to support caddie programs if it means they have to pay more to play.

Tom P:  I can second that story about Joe Dey.  I was out walking The Creek one afternoon when he approached me and basically told me to leave.  That same night I met him formally in the buffet line at Piping Rock.

TEPaul

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2006, 08:54:58 AM »
You know Sean, it certainly is an interesting question and obviously a very important question of whether or not it is the USGA's responsiblitiy to grow the game, or whether it should be part of their stated mission.

I really do wonder about that. Obviously it's the manufacturer's responsibility to grow the game and maybe some other entities responsibility to grow the game such as the PGA or even the ASGCA, but I'm not sure that's what the USGA's responsibility should be.

To me their primary responsiblity is to protect the integrity of the actual game of golf---it's rules, amateur status and certainly I&B, as well as golf agronomy with their green section and even their handicapping and its service. Of course I would like to see them get more interested in protecting the integrity of the playing fields of the game as well. I hope this architecture archive initiative can accomplish that to some extent.

But if the amount of golfers grows at certain times or shrinks at other times, so what? Should that really be their concern and mission?

I'll tell you one thing, I don't think the game of golf will ever be in danger of basically going out of existence over here.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 08:57:16 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2006, 09:03:39 AM »
TomD:

I'm trying to write a design evolution report for The Creek right now. I'd like you to take a look at it if you could. Can I email it to you at some point soon?

When Joe Dye tried to throw you off The Creek must have been right around the end of his days. I think 1992 was about the time he came down on me too like a ton of bricks for my proposal to the USGA & R&A to make "The Honor" (Rule 10-1A) optional.

He did calm down though and we agreed to meet about 2-3 weeks hence at Piping Rock but he died a week or two later.

They say up there at The Creek that Dye's mantra for the golf course and the way he sort of tried to obsolesce things like bunkers and such into rough and to plant fescue in the fairways and such was to simply make it less costly to maintain by trying to make the golf course look and play more like the courses of GB.

I did ask them seriously if that's really what he said and they said it sure was.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 09:08:08 AM by TEPaul »

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2006, 09:06:37 AM »
$3 million for 6 holes.
Wow, last summer I was involved in the building of 9 holes with regulation length for $150,000.  That included irrigation (single row).  The club is quite content with the end product which they helped build.



Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2006, 09:07:11 AM »
Steve: Is this program going to be coordinated with Metropolitan 1st Tee based up at Mosholu Park. Barry McLaughlin  does a wonderful job running that program.

I'm glad to see this come about......this is what NYC Parks was looking for when the license for the running of the facility was up for renewal a few years ago.  there are certainly more than enough kids in the local area available to take advantage of a facility like this.  

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2006, 09:08:53 AM »
Slapper -

Nice thread.

Around these parts, the state golf associations have really stepped up in this regard. See

http://www.mgalinks.org/junior_golf/mamantapett_links.html

The Maine State Golf Association, a dynamic organization that hosts a weekly tournament that regularly attracts 300-400 golfers, has built up a sizeable war chest and is ready to build a practice area / four holer / museum as soon as they find a place for it.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Step in the Right Direction
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2006, 12:33:45 PM »
Rewarding good behavior is the only way the USGA could make caddy programs more 'en vogue'.

One of the microcosims of living here in a small city u.s.a. is the inherent difference in work ethic between the "city" kids and the ranch/farm kids.

Next year in Junior golf, Corey has decided to offer free annual memberships for the kids who sign-up for Juinor golf. Hopefully encouraging their parents to play more and even if the parents aren't golfers, he wants to see kids out there walking and golfing.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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