[david h. carroll]

there's been some disagreement at my home course over whether the 11th hole as restored magnificently by Brian Silva is a double plateau or a maiden....I've always thought and so have most other members that the hole was a double plateau, but Silva says it's more of a Maiden with the crease in the center and the two mounds at the rear...personally I believe they are more like shelves  What really distinguishes these two templates and are they relatively similar at other MacRaynors?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

David,

I believe Brian to be correct (oh, does it hurt me to say that). The Maiden is two back tiers seperated by a narrow trough. My favorite is at Wanumetonmy in Rhode Island. Double Plateau usually entails one raised level either front left or front right and with the second raised level - the same height as the front one - usually taking up the entire back half of the green. Fishers Island has a wonderful version of this hole.

Anthony

[wsmorrison]

David,

Are you wondering if the original design on your course was a Maiden or a Double Plateau or whether if it was restored as original what it was?

I take it there are no drawings or construction instructions that exist.  As an aside, I don't know how much Raynor relied on drawings for his designs.  If he did, how much of his portfolio drawings exist today?  

Have you searched for aerial and ground photographs that might help you?  I think I saw you are in the Baltimore region.  Perhaps the Hagley collection, local historical societies, museums, libraries and the like might have a collection of photographs, newspaper articles, and other archival material that could help you.  Craig Disher is one fellow you should contact if you feel the search to date has not been exhaustive.  He also has a software program that, with the right sources, can bring out tremendous detail about vertical features and quantify heights down to a foot or so.

[david h. carroll]

Thanks--just shot you an email re: lion's mouth

[Jim Franklin]

DC -

I never thought it was a Double Plateau until you said it was. It certainly doesn't come close to reminding me of Fishers Island so I gotta agree with Silva and call it a Maiden.

[BCrosby]

David,

The Maiden is two back tiers seperated by a narrow trough.

I was never clear as to the distinction either, but if the above describes a Maiden green, then Ross designed exactly that for the 4th at Athens CC. It fits the definition so precisely that it's hard to imagine Ross didn't know he was using a MacD/Raynor template.

You don't see Ross do that very often.

Bob

[Mike_Sweeney]

From Silva's work at Mountain Lake.

No cheating please. Which one is Maiden, and which one is Double Plateau? One view is from the side, and one is from the front.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jim,

The very subtle Maiden green at Fishers is the 10th, making it a Double Plateau-Maiden combination (holes 9 and 10).

I should probably also point out that the Maiden greens often times tilt back to front at a severe angle.

Anthony

[david h. carroll]

Another question as to routing--we would potentially be going Maiden at 420yds(currently in place), Double Plateau at 445(green to be redone from current featurelss form) and then Biarritz at 245(currently in place with thumprint in fron portion as well as the normal swale in middle)....it seems like you'd be playing a variation of the same green three holes in a row....that may be cool.  I dunno.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Mike,

The first picture is the Maiden at Mountain Lake, the 18th green taken from the left side.  The second picture is the Double Plateau 1st hole taken from the front of the green.

The main difference is that the Maiden green is almost like a miniature Biarritz green turned 90 degrees.  The swale goes from the front of the green to the rear.  It's a wonderful green, one of my favorites at Mountain Lake, there are some very tricky putts on that green.

The Double Plateau green has three distinct shelves and is almost like three separate small greens glued together.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I was surprised to see a "Two shot redan" at Blue Mound in Milwaukee earlier this year.  They also had the (I think) double plateau green, but from this description, maybe it was a Maiden. Who knows?

Raynor couldn't always get his prototypes perfect, and sometimes combined the two, or altered them.

Not a big whup - it its a great green, its a great green by any name, no?

[david h. carroll]

Silva talked about there being a prevalence of two shot redans and the fact that he'd love to find a place for one at our place...i haven't seen one and wonder how far out the approach usually is for 275 yrd drive?  For example is the approach usually as far the par 3 version?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Silva talked about there being a prevalence of two shot redans and the fact that he'd love to find a place for one at our place...i haven't seen one and wonder how far out the approach usually is for 275 yrd drive?  For example is the approach usually as far the par 3 version?

See the reverse redan 12th at Fishers, 390 yards, but second shot is up a pretty steep hill, so I would say a 140-150 shot for a 275 drive.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/fishers000162.html

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The Redan at Fishers plays about 172 into the prevailing wind. The second shot of the 12th, the Reverse Redan, cannot be reduced to a simple number since the hole plays so differently depending on ground firmness and wind conditions. I've seen good players hit approaches anywhere from 65 yards to 180 yards, and you can drive the ball too close to the green.

Hotchkiss's first hole is a great 2-shot Reverse Redan.

Anthony

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