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Matt_Ward

Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« on: October 31, 2006, 04:59:41 PM »
I had the pleasure in playing a few of the new Doak courses this year and one of the more interesting conversations I had came with 2-3 different people (from different parts of the USA) who have played both Ballyneal and Pac Dunes. Each of them -- myself included -- see the Holyoke layout as the better of the two.

Be interested in seeing what others think and I will post my thoughts when time opens permits.

Thanks ...

P.S. For those weak liver folks who simply want to opine that both are great courses (no doubt!) and don't want to say anything more than simply refer to my P.S. post here so you can save all that time in typing and from others in reading. ;)

Tom Huckaby

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2006, 05:05:50 PM »
Matt - that PS is very interesting coming from one who STILL refuses to make the Sand Hills / Ballyneal comparison.

 ;D ;D

Yet to play Ballyneal, may never, thus no opinion on the topic. other than to add that the one friend I have who has played both - a non-GCAer to the core for sure - liked Ballyneal but LOVES Pacific. He said it wasn't close.  So the contrary view does exist...

In any case, someone would have called you on the PS if I didn't.

TH

« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 05:17:27 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 05:13:26 PM »
Matt,

Tell us why, please.

CHrisB

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 05:16:14 PM »
Interesting--The one person I know who has played both (a practicing GCA) also said that Ballyneal was superior.

He didn't have time to get into details, however--I'd be interested to hear Matt's opinion (and others') on why Ballyneal is better.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 05:47:04 PM »
I loved both courses but would have to give the nod to Ballyneal, just terrific.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark_F

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 05:51:34 PM »
Ballyneal surely only has to be half as good as the pictures in Ran's profile and it is miles in front, views be damned.

The par fives also sound interesting - maybe not all world, but clever and intriguing?

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 05:54:43 PM »
When can we schedule the next outing to Balyneal?

The rationale is for comparison purposes only - Just got Pac Dunes under my belt and need to experience Balyneal in order to participate in this esteemed thread.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 06:42:48 PM »
Chip,

everyone has already played Ballyneal.  Its yesterdays news... ;)

I fall into they are both great category that Matt doesn't want to hear about. I will say that you can't take the water views out of the equation at PD, just like you can't at Pebble.  But Ballyneal is so good it is scary.  I said this when I got back that it made me want to play Sand Hills even more because if Sand Hills is better than Ballyneal, then I really need to see Sand Hills.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 06:48:04 PM by Sean Leary »

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2006, 07:27:46 PM »
I've played both as well.  In my opinion, Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, and Sand Hills are far and above my favorites of any courses I played, so please take that into consideration when I make these comments.  I think the three of them are much closer to one another than any of them are to any other course I've played.

I still give a slight edge to Pacific Dunes.  I don't consider myself to be enough of an architectural expert to decipher which has the greatest merits at that level, so I revert back to the "where would I play tomorrow" approach.  Private vs. public aside - let's assume I had equal access to all three - I think I would pick Pacific Dunes.  When access comes into the equation, you'd have to be insane to not choose one of the other two when given the opportunity.

I think the return trip and more rounds played definitely factors into the equation.  When Ballyneal firms up, I think it may be an even tougher decision.

I'm not ready to provide any more specific information than this just yet.  I'm still waiting for a detailed response from Matt on the other thread as to why the par 3s at PD suffer from a world class standpoint!

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2006, 07:36:05 PM »
Tim,
I like your approach.  Perhaps using the 10 rounds test is a good way to get at the gut level feel for the question.  I have played all three and would split 4 BN, 3 SH, and 3 PD.  In other words about a toss up with a small nod to BN.  As Sean said, it is scary good and I think will only get better.  That said, all three are outstanding and we should thank God each day that they happened in our lifetime.

As to the firming up of BN, you should have played this August.  I played both SH and BN within a few weeks of each other around that time and the fairways of Ballyneal were as firm as any I have ever played and provided for much more ground game than Sand Hills.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2006, 07:55:40 PM »
I started to compare them hole by hole, but it's tough to match up the holes ... Pacific Dunes has an extra par-5 AND an extra par-3 compared with Ballyneal, the 18th holes are different pars, etc.

If I gave each of the holes a 1-10 rating, I think Pacific Dunes would fare just as well if not better.  But the big difference for Matt, I'm sure, is that Ballyneal has six legitimate long par-4's [holes 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 and 18] and Pacific Dunes has just three [holes 4, 7, and 13, which match up well against any three of Ballyneal's six].  

Matt is going to say that the other three holes at Ballyneal are better than the extra par-3 at Pacific (the 14th) and the extra par-5 (the 12th) and one of the medium par-4's at Pacific (let's say the 9th).  And that's his taste, because that's the way he hits it.  But I think that on the other 15 holes, Pacific Dunes is a couple of lengths in front, so it would be a horse race to the wire and different judges might see it differently.

It's a nice problem to have.

Matt_Ward

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 07:55:57 PM »
Huck:

Great retort. I stand guilty as charged !!!

I will opine on the Sand Hills v Ballyneal before the year is out. There's plenty to go around on that one. I also want to count my ten fingers before I get started to make sure everything is intact.

But since Pac and Ballyneal were done by the same architect I opted to go in that direction first.

Tim B:

I answered your question on the other thread / re: Pac's standing overall. Maybe you just didn't like my answer.

Gents:

As an FYI I have three general categories when I review any layout ...

1). The overall property
2). The complexity of the routing
3). The quality of shot values

Conditioning is important but less than the first three for me.

When I played Ballyneal this past August the overall turf conditions were maturing -- not quite so fast and firm as they will likely be next season.

I was amazed by the sheer spectacular site -- especially when you drive in from Holyloke.

The fairways fit so well within the naturalness of the terrain.

In regards to the ratings criteria I mentioned I would rate the two courses a flat draw in regards to the actual properties. One is flush to the Pacific but the other is no less grand with the rolling terrain and native brush in NE Colorado.

The routing, for me at least, favors Ballyneal. I understand what Tom Doak said previously on another thread concerning how the actual routing at Pac came about. I do like what was done there but I like what Ballyneal accomplished just a tad more because of the varied change of directions.

The final item goes with the shot values required -- I would say the par-4's are a draw -- the par-5's favors Ballyneal and I would say the par-3 holes are ever so slightly ahead w Ballyneal. From the standpoint of constantly changing the pace -- I see Ballyneal again with the slightest of edges.

Before anyone throws forward that I am dismissing Pac Dunes please don't even go there. I enjoy the course immensely but Ballyneal for me is the best 100% Doak I have played to date (e.g. I count Sebonack as a tag team effort).

No doubt both courses are tremendous fun and will engender plenty of discussion here. As well they should ...


Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 08:01:45 PM »
I think Tom is one lucky guy to have two courses which are in the forfront of the architectural golfing world. Actually he has more that that. I hope to see Ballyneal next year to see the finished product. I may be the next John Kirk at the rate I am going. lol

JohnV

Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 08:12:36 PM »
Matt,

Thank you for this thread as it really got me to think about the two courses and why I gave Pacific Dunes a higher rating that Ballyneal.  First, I don't think there is anything wrong with Ballyneal.  I loved it and could play it every day, but I think that Pacific Dunes is in a class by itself among the courses I've seen.

In my mind, Pacific Dunes wins on many levels.  First, I like the fact that the Pacific is more of a core golf course in that all the holes fit together and are not just strung around a huge piece of property.  I've read others criticize Bandon Dunes for taking up so much land for its 18 holes.  Ballyneal seems to take up a lot more.  Even given the tighter layout, I think the holes at Pacific are superior.  

I find the start of Pacific to be much more interesting.  The first 2 holes at Pacific are quirky and full of interest.  The first 2 at Ballyneal are very good holes, but much more straight forward to me.  They don't capture my interest or set the mood as well.

If I were to do the traditional match play that Ran and others like, the battle wouldn't be close to me.  But, I don't like that as it matches unlike holes.  So I'll compare more similar holes.

First the par 3s.  There are 5 at Pacific and 4 at Ballyneal.  #5 at both courses are fairly similar.  I find Pacific's to be a much more interesting version.  The green has more character, the area short of the green is better and I like the kick of the left dune better than the one off the right at Ballyneal.  Since there are two shorter 3s at Pacific (11 & 14) and only one at Ballyneal (3), it is hard to compare, but I personally would take either of Pacific's vs #3 at Ballyneal.  I'll compare 10 at Pacific to 11 at Ballyneal.  The green at Ballyneal is more interesting and the shot from the far left tee is intimidating.  #10 at PD is interesting with the two radically different tee shots, but I give the edge to Ballyneal here.  #15 at Ballyneal is one of my favorite holes there, with the ridge short of the green and much of the green hidden from view and while I love a Redan as much as anyone other than my long-lost twin brother, #17 at Pacific isn't anywhere near as interesting although it might be tougher.

In comparing the par 4s, there are 9 at Pacific and 11 at Ballyneal.  Pacific has more interesting short par 4s.  1, 6 and 16 are all short par 4s while 7 is really the only short par 4 at Ballyneal.  I do like the green at 7 at Ballyneal, but the approach at 6 beats it and the other two are a lot of fun while making you hit a good drive and precise second.  Just having 3 short par 4s puts Pacific ahead of Ballyneal.

In the mid-range holes, I'd say that 2, 8, and 9 at Pacific compare with 1, 9, 12 and 14 at Ballyneal.  2 is a magical hole with lots of ways to play it, 8 has a great simple green and 9 is so unusual with the two greens and plays so different depending on which one is in play.  To me, 1 at Ballyneal is straight forward with the only question being how much you can carry on the tee shot although the green does have quite a bit of character.  9 is the best of the mid-range par 4s at Ballyneal with the decision off the tee about how much club to take and a green surface that is hidden from view.  12 has an interesting green and a requirement to hit the ball to the correct place to see it.  14 has the good center bunker and the green is good up on the hill, but doesn't do much else for me.

For the longer par 4s, Pacific brings 3 to the table, 4, 7 and 13 and all are all-world to me.  7 is probably one of the hardest holes I've played and the way the other two move along the cliffs and play so differently depending on the wind is awesome.  Ballyneal has a much larger set of long par 4s with 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 and 18 all requiring two good shots to reach the green.  2, 6 and 18 are all good tests, but don't excite me the way Pacific's do although the different looks on 6 depending on which tee you choose make it a cut above the others.  10 and 13 give good options from the shorter tees with bunkers that can be taken on or avoided and have interesting green complexes.  From the back tees they are both beasts.  17 is a good hole with a good green, but the second shot from the top wasn't that appealing and from below the hill was awkward.

For par 5s, Pacific has 4 vs Ballyneal's 3.  Some might say that the par 5s are Pacific's weakness as three of them cross the flatter land on the course, but I think at least three of them are excellent.  #3 has good center bunkering and the green sitting on the ridge is wonderful.  I fell in love with this hole when I found you could putt around the front right bunker to a hole set behind it.  #12 is probably the blandest hole there, but the green, while flat is nicely set between the left fronting dune and the big one behind it.  #15's tee shot reminds me of the tee shot at #7 at Dornoch in that you have to avoid the gorse on both sides.  From there the hole gets interesting in determining how to play around the bunkers and then get to the raised green.  18 is a great finisher with trouble everywhere and a curious green.  As for Ballyneal, #4 is a very good hole with a tee shot that seems to fly forever.  The green is very good with some interesting movement and shelves.  #8 is the best of the lot with a tee shot that gets narrow at the right point and then a very challenging second over the bunkers to a great green complex.  #8 is the best par 5 at either course in my mind.  #16 is a weird hole to me as the second shot is either a very short layup leaving a long second or a tough blind one that is hard to fit into a narrow area.  I wasn't very thrilled by it and would consider it my least favorite par 5 at the two courses.

I prefer the finishing 3 holes at Pacific much more than the final 3 at Ballyneal.  16 through 18 at Ballyneal seemed to be my least favorite stretch on the course, whereas I found 16-18 at Pacific to keep my excitement growing.

I think that Ballyneal is a wonderful course, but I think that Pacific is a great course.  I haven't seen Sand Hills, Friar's Head or many others yet so I will say that Pacific is the best modern course I've seen to this point.

While I was typing up this reply, Tom posted his and I think I'm in pretty close agreement with him on much of this.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 09:02:41 PM »
In regards to Matt's "criteria" for review, Ballyneal might be on a spectacular piece of property, but I do not see anything surpasing Pacific Dunes in that regard.  

Sorry, just can't see it.  It's perfect.  Dunes, hills, vegetation, scraggly trees, sea mist.......

I'm sure Sand Hills is on epic land, same with Sebonac, Barnbougle, Cape Kidnappers and Ballyneal too.

Banff looks amazing, Cypress, Harbour Town, Pebble & NGLA.....they all are spectacular.

But Pacific Dunes has got to be one of the best pieces of land for golf ever

I am not kidding
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 09:10:57 PM »
Chip,

everyone has already played Ballyneal.  Its yesterdays news... ;)

Ouch! :)

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 09:14:59 PM »
I started to compare them hole by hole, but it's tough to match up the holes ... Pacific Dunes has an extra par-5 AND an extra par-3 compared with Ballyneal, the 18th holes are different pars, etc.

If I gave each of the holes a 1-10 rating, I think Pacific Dunes would fare just as well if not better.  But the big difference for Matt, I'm sure, is that Ballyneal has six legitimate long par-4's [holes 2, 6, 10, 13, 17 and 18] and Pacific Dunes has just three [holes 4, 7, and 13, which match up well against any three of Ballyneal's six].  

Matt is going to say that the other three holes at Ballyneal are better than the extra par-3 at Pacific (the 14th) and the extra par-5 (the 12th) and one of the medium par-4's at Pacific (let's say the 9th).  And that's his taste, because that's the way he hits it.  But I think that on the other 15 holes, Pacific Dunes is a couple of lengths in front, so it would be a horse race to the wire and different judges might see it differently.

It's a nice problem to have.


Tom seems to hint at something here that brings us back to the threads about the small and personal distinctions between the top courses.

At this level of the premier courses in the world, does the separation come down to the strength of the par 4's? Can a great course be exceptional without having superlative par 4's? Very seldom do we look at par 5's or 3's as the holes that single out the best (expecting some retort about redans and the like).

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2006, 10:29:57 PM »
I believe the designer had a greater challenge at BN to “find the best golf course” in the dunes.  I think the artistic achievement at BN is greater.

Having said that, and based on 1 day and 2 quick rounds at BN, and without the proper qualifications to answer Mike Cirba's question ("tell us why"), and without having played any other Doak or C&C courses, this is IMHO:

PD # 2, 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 are among my favorite holes ever, and nothing at BN, even # 7, beats them.  I’m leaving out PD#4 and #13 only because I believe it’s the setting of these holes, expertly exploited by the designer, which makes them unbeatable.  

I think #2PD is among the best golf holes I’ve ever played, for beauty and challenge together.  #2, 6, 7, 8, and 16 are simply magnificent 2-shot holes, with infinite options.  The fun and challenge of making 4 on these holes makes you want to go back again and again.

Par 3s
#5 BN > #5 PD  #5 PD feels too similar to too many others, #5 BN feels unique.
#11 PD > #11 BN (IMO, #11 BN is a great hole and will be really formidable from the back tees, but #11 PD is nearly the equal of #7 at Royal County Down and #15 at Cypress Point—a masterpiece!)
#17 PD = #15 BN  Thrilling downhill one-shotters.
#14 PD = #10 PD = #3 BN = excellent holes, perfect for their sites.
 
Par 5s
BN winds hands down.  I assume 4, 8, 16 are par 5s (am I missing one?).  These are all thrilling, and better artistically and strategically than 3, 12, 15, and 18 at PD.

Beginning 1, 2, 3, 4
PD wins hands down.  These holes are more memorable than the beginners at BN, and 1, 2, and 3, make a great walk toward the fantastic ocean hole—what could be better?

Finish 15, 16, 17, 18
BN wins hands down.  These holes together are more brawny and brainy than the finishers at PD.

Routing
I think BN is a more enjoyable walk than PD, only because of the puzzlingly long walk from 11 to 12 at PD.  Couldn’t 12 have been started closer to 11?  

No Tee Markers
I love this about BN.  

Firm and Fast
Both will be, though I suspect BN will end up having more “short grass as hazard.”

Getting there from O’Hare
BN wins.

Rupert O’Neal
Nothing compares at the Bandon resort.

I could play both of them twice a day for the rest of my life and die happy.  I agree with Tom Doak that comparing these courses is a nice problem to have and in addition could occupy many hours at a nearby pub...

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2006, 10:34:41 PM »
Each course is brilliant, but I give the edge to Pacific Dunes over Ballyneal.  To me, the question comes down to which course would I rather play on a regular basis, and PD wins fairly easily.  Of course, the ocean, sea air and amazing turf are factors in PD's favor, but how could one discount them?  I'll concede that I played Ballyneal in July when the greens were not in top condition (too slow).  Still, I don't see Ballyneal quite rising to the level of PD, in my eyes.  Ballyneal is stunning, an amazing achievement, but, to me, prairie links isn't quite the real thing (and I'm sure people will say that PD isn't links land either because it sits above a cliff--well, I don't care--it's a links course in my book).

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2006, 10:46:41 PM »
IPar 5s
BN winds hands down.  I assume 4, 8, 16 are par 5s (am I missing one?).  These are all thrilling, and better artistically and strategically than 3, 12, 15, and 18 at PD.

Really?  As a set, I might give the edge to Ballyneal (although that is by no means certain), but I'd rate PD #3 as a better hole than any of the par 5s at Ballyneal.  Actually, now that I think about it, I believe #15 and #18 are very underrated holes at PD, and I don't love any of the par 5s at Ballyneal, so I'd give the overall win to PD as well.  

Why is everyone in love with the no tee markers concept?  I found it a little gimmicky and perhaps even a bit pretentious in a reverse-snobbery kind of way.  

Did I mention I loved Ballyneal?

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2006, 11:00:55 PM »
I enjoyed the par 5s at Ballyneal, and #8 was my personal favorite, which I would probably put ahead of the par 5s at PD.  The first shot on that hole was okay, but the fun really kicked in after that.  I liked the placement of the fairway bunkers that drive shots right of the green, which is a spot that can be treacherous on a little pitch or bump.  The green is one of the most fun I've played, and it wasn't even rolling fast when I was there.  

I loved the no tees concept, which obviously doesn't have anything to do with the architectural merits of the course.  I thought that the course had enough half par holes, combined with enough variety in the tee boxes that you could create a completely different course (and par) daily if desired.  Several of the holes had pretty different looks, so the variety was nice.  I suppose you could do this at just about any course by ignoring the markers, but it was the freedom to choose that really made me happy.  There was no "pressure" to play from a certain spot on each hole.  It just made for a carefree feeling in my opinion.  The first round we played, we went with group concensus.  The second round we went with the winner of the previous hole chooses, which was fun too.  I found myself trying a little harder (and sometimes too hard) when a hole was coming up and I had a strong opinion on where I wanted to tee it up.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2006, 11:01:04 PM »
Tim--

Any comparison between Ballyneal and Pacific Dunes requires some serious splitting of hairs, but here we go.

I agree with Eric, the par fives at Ballyneal are better.  Even though #3 is the best hole of the combined group, it's by a close margin over #4 at Ballyneal.  The 12th at Pacific Dunes is the weakest hole on the course IMHO and the 15th and 18th are not the strength of Pacific Dunes.  

As far as the lack of tee markers goes, I thought it was cool and it gives the group the chance to play wherever they want and potentially allows for a Sheep Ranch type match where the winner of the previous hole chooses the teeing ground for the next.  

I agree with the argument that the first three at Pacific Dunes are better, but I think the final three at Ballyneal are clearly better.  

From what I've read so far, it seems like this comparison boils down to a fun vs. challenge factor.  Those who favor fun prefer Pacific Dunes while those who prefer challenge favor Ballyneal.  I fall into the challenge category as I feel Ballyneal is the more compete test of golf, where you have to play more different clubs into greens than at Pacific.  

They are both outstanding courses and could play either one on a regular basis and be thrilled.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 11:07:17 PM by Adam_Messix »

Tim Bert

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Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2006, 11:06:32 PM »

From what I've read so far, it seems like this comparison boils down to a fun vs. challenge factor.  Those who favor fun prefer Pacific Dunes while those who prefer challenge favor Ballyneal.  I fall into the challenge category as I feel Ballyneal is the more compete test of golf, where you have to play more different clubs into greens than at Pacific.  



I hadn't thought of it this way, mostly because it isn't consistent with my experience.  I've played 7 rounds at PacDunes and I have never broken ninety.  I've posted a couple 91s (including one where if I counted my second tee shot on #1 as a mulligan I could pretend I broke 90) and a 92 and 93, but I can't get into the eighties.  In contrast, the first time I played Ballyneal, I shot 87.  I think one of the biggest contributing factor is that I've almost always played PD in a medium to heavy wind, and at BN the day I was there the wind nearly non-existent.  Still, in my opinion, the front nine at PD is the most challenging of the four nines.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2006, 11:40:41 PM »
I'll express a minority opinion and say that I just might prefer St Andrews Beach over either Pacific Dunes or Ballyneal......an opinion that earned me a strange look from Tom Doak while in Holyoke.
Tim Weiman

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ballyneal v Pac Dunes
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2006, 12:42:52 AM »
I may be the next John Kirk at the rate I am going. lol

These days I often perceive that to be a good thing.

I certainly have enjoyed reading this thread.  I recently wrote I thought Pacific Dunes was the #1 course in the country.  I like Ballyneal very much too.

One thing that's really great about Ballyneal is watching the ball roll.  The ball often disappears, then reappears in the folds of the fairways, and there are many greens that easily accept running shots.  Add in the wildly undulating greens, and it all makes great spectating.

I'm a huge fan of modern course design, and am grateful that courses like Pacific Dunes and Ballyneal are around.


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