[cary lichtenstein]

Forest Creek, The Snead and 3 Creek Ranch all ahead of Greywalls, I beg to differ

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Couple of quick comments on the list --

I do concur w Cary on Greywalls -- the course, IMHO, should easily be in the top ten. I would not hesitate for a NY minute for it be in that kind of lofty company.

3 Creek Ranch is nicely done by Rees but the layout, minus a few holes of note, is primarily a formulaic design that's got the benefit of the Grand Tetons being in the background.

How does Outlaw continue on the "best new" when it's been opened for a few years now?

I'd like to know the specific time frame involved here in order to get a sense of what's being considered and what's not.

One other comment for now -- Neshanic Valley is a fine taxpayer-owned layout in Somerset County, NJ. It is, however, not one of the top 50 "best new" in the USA. Rochelle Ranch, the Ken Kavanaugh design in Rawlins, WY simply blows it away -- part of the rationale comes down how much any course has been visited / played.

Last item -- glad to see the two Engh courses noted but the order is wrong -- Pradera belongs higher than Lakota Canyon Ranch.

Jerry:

I have not played the Upper Course at Whisper Rock thus far. Was supposed to play it this past spring but time worked against me. How high do you think the course should be rated ?

John K:

You completely missed my point -- all I suggested is that people play from tees they are comfortable with when handling any course. Simple as that -- got it.

If people play from the wrong tees it's possible -- often times likely -- their opinion will be influenced because of their personal experience.

Candidly, do you really believe Stone Eagle is better than the Nicklaus course at Pringhorn ?

[Brad Klein]

Matt, as indicated with the first thread, the list covers courses that officially opened in 2004-2005.

Greywalls has some interesting holes; it also has some very wacky holes on the front nine that can easily be experienced by some golfers as very problematic.

Matt, the order of the two Engh courses cannot be "wrong" since this is a subjective rating system. You just disgaree with the results. I'm not saying we're right, either. It's just a rating poll. Not a statement of fact.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: I haven't played it but it had quite a bit of publicity because of the tour players that belong.  BTW: Tim Clark did a lessons with the pros on the Golf Channel and it was at Silverleaf - too bad the fairways had just been punched as it is a beautiful track.

[Dan_Callahan]

I find it very hard to believe that there were 48 courses that opened in 04-05 that are better than Oxford Greens. Certainly not the two Lake of Isles courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Given what you and others have said I'm looking forward to playing the new TF design at Whisper Rock. Frankly, I don't understand why the Mickelson / Stephenson layout isn't rated nationally and higher in the Grand Canyon State.

Ditto the qualities of Silverleaf -- often overlooked by many who visit the greater Scottsdale area. The final three holes on the course are indeed well done.

Brad:

For something to be new it's a bit odd that courses from two years ago are still considered "new." But, that's a matter of my opinion.

Regarding Greywalls -- I stand behind what I said. I've played a good number of those finishing ahead of it and for my money I'll take my chances with the DeVries layout anytime. It's a solid follow-up given the nature of what Mike did with Kingsley Club.

When you say "wacky" holes I'd love to which ones you are speaking about at Greywalls?

[Brad Klein]

Matt, I covered some of this in my Spring 2005 review of Greywalls, but I'm referring to holes 4 and 5, to start with. I gave it an 11 on my Yikes-meter, with some weird combination of narrow defiles, rock walls, and narrow, dramatic ledges and landing areas. It's as if you have a well-proportioned race course and then suddenly have to squeeze by a chicane.

[Joe Hancock]

Matt, I covered some of this in my Spring 2005 review of Greywalls, but I'm referring to holes 4 and 5, to start with. I gave it an 11 on my Yikes-meter, with some weird combination of narrow defiles, rock walls, and narrow, dramatic ledges and landing areas. It's as if you have a well-proportioned race course and then suddenly have to squeeze by a chicane.

Brad,

Not too bad of an analogy. I would agree with you on #5, but #4 plays with more than ample width. It looks more intimidating than it plays, IMO. #5, as I understand it, would have required an awful lot of blasting that would have added significantly to the construction cost.

Matt,

Greywalls isn't good because it was Mike's follow-up to Kingsley. It's good because Mike is.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Joe:

Agree with you 10000%.

I can only hope more people will take the time AND CONSIDERABLE EFFORT to get to Marquette to play the course. I drove out from Jersey last year because the varied sources I depend upon for course specifics were absolutely gushing about the layout. I really liked it -- although I did have some comments on the closing hole with its bottleneck landing area -- but that's small fry compared to the totality of what's there.

Gents:

I don't see what you're saying. I agree w Joe -- the 4th has plenty of width -- I mean it's not 50-60 yards across but there's sufficient room to play from the tee. I especially liked the blind hill to drive over. It does make you think twice when standing on the box ready to fire away. The green is also nicely tucked back and just getting a feel for the approach distance can be vexing for many.

The 5th is very seductive hole because there's a tendency among strong / power players to bang away and get near the target. The smart play is out to the right for a short pitch. To its' credit - the hole does provide options. I like the rock wall to the right -- my God -- if they can have a road next to a hole in Scotland (which man created) -- having a rock to the right side of the green isn't that much of a stretch in my mind.

What needs to be mentioned is the constant change of direction and requirements when playing any of the holes on the front side at Greywalls. Like I said at the outset -- the starting hole is simply grand stuff. There's no long warm-up when playing the course -- it says "welcome" in a clear and unbridled fashion.

[John Kirk]

Matt,

Sorry.  I cannot make the comparison between Stone Eagle and Pronghorn - Nicklaus.  I haven't played at Pronghorn yet.

[Wayne Freeman]

Played 4 of the top 5 and 10 on the list.  Bandon Trails, Trump, Old Sandwich, and Boston are all very solid and could all make the top 100 Golfweek modern list.  Stone Eagle is very good, with beautiful vistas of the red rocks, but I thought it just didn't make it for top 100 material.  The most disappointing newbie to me is Trump Palos Verdes.  Incredible ocean views and clubhouse, but just a hodgepodge of holes all in the same east/west orientation (except the gimmicky 1st).  

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