News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Less-Known Redans
« on: October 25, 2006, 07:59:29 PM »
I'm playing at Stevinson Ranch tomorrow (Stevinson, Ca; John Harbottle III design), which features a stellar redan hole (# 7 if memory serves).

I'm curious to see which GCAers have a favorite redan on a lesser-known (not in the GD 100) course and why.

Is it primarily a result of playing length? Wind direction(s)? Surrounding hazards? Visual elements? Green contours? Alternate teeing grounds?

What sets your local favorite apart from other redan examples.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 09:21:01 PM »
Kyle,

I'll give you two great Reverse Redans:

1) Dedham (Mass.) Country and Polo - Raynor

D) Black Creek (Chattanooga) - Silva

I also think the Redan at CC of Fairfield (Conn.) is overlooked.

Anthony


Jason Blasberg

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 09:30:25 PM »
Likely my favorite is the Redan at Westhampton.  

I also like the Nader at Engineers (that nobody other than me and Robert Deruntz thinks is one).

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans New
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2006, 09:33:23 PM »
Tom's Apache Stronghold has a nice Redan against a fantastic backdrop.

Is it considered lesser known?


« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 09:40:52 PM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2006, 09:34:40 PM »
I didn't see much true Redan at Stevinson Ranch - the right side of the green actually repelled shots off to the right.  There was some movement toward the left on the green surface itself, but there was no way, at least not IMHO, that a low draw hit toward the right side of the green could bounce onto the green.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2006, 09:35:18 PM »
Toronto Golf Club has a sperb redan and 17 other good holes
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2006, 02:01:10 AM »
I didn't see much true Redan at Stevinson Ranch - the right side of the green actually repelled shots off to the right.  There was some movement toward the left on the green surface itself, but there was no way, at least not IMHO, that a low draw hit toward the right side of the green could bounce onto the green.

It's been a good 18 months since I last played there (I will be better able to comment after tomorrow's revisit). I do remember a bit of a subtle false front on the right front that could repel shots, as you've stated. However, I also seem to recall that this slope was gentle enough that a low draw could be played into it (especially given the correct wind conditions) such that this slope would actually aid the player by helping the ball check up rather than running all the way through the back left of the lightning-quick green. I don't recall seeing a right to left shot kicking to the right off of this slope. I'll scout it out and report tomorrow.

"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2006, 08:10:17 AM »
How this course isn't in GD's list, is an omission which actually made me put the rag down and never pick it up again.

Lawsonia's fourth

Long before I ever heard the word Redan, I respected this hole because of my inability to "figure it out".

The uphill blind nature of this Langford and Moreau 206 yard hole epitomizes the lure of the challenge to a newer golfer. Too many of the mistaken modern principles, would preclude this hole from being built, today. (At least by those who are concerned with appeasing the golfer who wants 1) To see everything 2) wants things easy. Apparently the preferred customer for some)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 08:12:15 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

bill_k

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2006, 09:22:20 AM »
#12 at Bob O'Link (Colt) in Highland Park outside Chicago.
#4 at The Bay Club at Mattapoisett (Faxon-Booth).
Anthony,
Dedham certainly gets my vote for the weirdest Redan-#3 is listed as a Redan on the card but I saw nothing that would distinguish it as such-same with the Biarritz there as well-the yardage is right...but little else.

wsmorrison

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2006, 09:34:30 AM »
Here are two holes from Philadelphia Country Club.  The 7th is a typical Flynn Redan hole.  The 11th looks like a Redan but does not play like one since the green does not slope from right to left.

The 7th




The 11th


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2006, 09:52:36 AM »
How about the 16th at Blue Heron Pines West?

www.blueheronpines.com/course-tour.cfm

A long Redan Par 3 with a blind, slightly elevated green gives the illusion of a small surface to land the ball. Fear not, there is ample green on which to land your shot, but use plenty of club to get there.
Pro Tip:
The sixteenth hole is the longest par three on the course. This redan-style hole gives the illusion of a small landing area. This couldn't be farther from the truth! The green is 42 yards in depth and 25 yards wide, providing ample area to land your long iron or heaven wood shot on the green. Beware of the large bunkers to the left and three hidden pot bunkers to the right. When putting on this simply treacherous green, remember that every putt breaks toward the left side of the green.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 09:53:54 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2006, 09:52:59 AM »
Wayne -
Will you get yourself over to the Spring Mill course post haste and rip out those insipid little saplings on the 11th.

wsmorrison

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2006, 09:56:52 AM »
They do look terrible.  I know that the club had to bargain with the township with their tree removal plan, planting a certain number of trees for based upon the number of trees they removed.  I am pretty sure these trees have been taken out since this photo was taken a few years ago.  I'll double check and, if necessary, put on my black sweater, pants, woolen cap and blackface and sneak on the course through my mother-in-law's backyard to remove those little blighters  ;)

By the way, a lot of the trees and clutter to the left of the 7th hole have been removed and it resulted in a much enhanced visual, bringing the nice stream that runs through it into view.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 09:58:07 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2006, 09:58:11 AM »
Adam:

Re. Lawsonia's 4th.....

I agree with your assessment of Lawsonia's lack of appeal to the GD raters.

But I'm not sure the 4th is really a true Redan. At this summer's GCA outing at Lawsonia, RJ Daley and I examined it pretty closely, and the green on the right side really lacks the cant toward the left part of the green that is representative of most true Redans. The hole does call for a traditional Redan-esque shot -- a draw with the option of playing through a narrow corridor on the right side. But the uphill shot, and pushed up nature of the green (and it often plays into a prevailing wind out of the south, esp. in summer), somewhat precludes a ground game approach to the hole. And the green really doesn't have that Redan "kick" to it.

It's a very tough hole, and I admire it for the qualities you mention -- it plays to an elevated green, you can't see much of the green from the tee, and several trouble spots are hidden. In some ways, I think it's the hardest of Lawsoni's group of par 3s, which are varied and all very good.

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2006, 12:07:59 PM »
The Retreat Course at Sea Island Golf Club- Hole #12
Kinderlou Forest Golf Club in Valdosta- Hole #15

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2006, 12:45:30 PM »
Thanks Phil,
 I'm more than willing to concede that I haven't been back to Green Lake since I've learned what a Redan was modeled after.

With the CBM buzz, and all the variations on the Redan theme, I wonder if this was L&M's way of copying the principle, while altering the specific green slope.

Phil, Dick, et al.-
 If long left is the proper miss for the North Berwick original? Can that same be said for Lawsonia's 4th?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2006, 12:54:37 PM »
The 3rd at Maryland National by Art Hills
The 4th at Glen Dornoch in SC by Clyde Johnston

Are they at risk of becoming a cliche?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2006, 01:03:15 PM »
Kyle - one you might know and love:

#14 at Saddle Creek GC, Copperopolis, CA.

Not a true redan since it plays quite a bit downhill,
but the green and surrounds sure work like a redan.
Great fun to sling one in from the right to a back left pin.

TH

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2006, 01:19:21 PM »
I didn't see much true Redan at Stevinson Ranch - the right side of the green actually repelled shots off to the right.  There was some movement toward the left on the green surface itself, but there was no way, at least not IMHO, that a low draw hit toward the right side of the green could bounce onto the green.

What Bill didn't see ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2006, 01:35:05 PM »
Wayne, photoshop that right hand bunker into an extension of the fairway and you have one of the great holes in America.  Toss in a foozle bunker short of the present fairway cut for effect.  



Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2006, 01:47:03 PM »
Adam:

Well, long left at Lawsonia's 4th is a shot I don't have! And it's hard to think of long left there as anything other than inviting trouble (if the thought on the tee is, if I'm going to miss it anywhere, it better be long left). L/M didn't completely encircle any of their greens with their famous bunkers at Lawsonia, but the 4th comes pretty darn close. From the tee, the bunker left and short (not really short, but what you'll hit if you're attempt at a draw is short) just sits there, huge and yawning. But there is another bunker, somewhat hidden, that adjoins that one, and connects around the left side of the green and toward the back. The largest of the three greenside bunkers wraps around the entire right side of the green, and again toward the back of the green. There is room long and left, but it's a pretty narrow opening between the two bunkers that wrap around toward the back left of the green. And, although my memory of the back of that green is a bit hazy, I'm guessing that there is a traditional L/M falloff, as there is at many of L/M's greens at Lawsonia. The bailout on 4, and the way I've played it every time since the first time (when I dumped a shot into the fronting bunker, didn't get out in one, played backwards just to get out, and pretty much ruined my card...), is a Casper-esque/WF 10th approach, where I just hit a shot at the opening in the front between the two bunkers, and hope for a chip and a one or two putt. Bogey on that hole, for my game, is a very good score.

It's hard to imagine that L/M weren't aware of Raynor's template holes and design concepts when doing Lawsonia -- for me, there's just too much similarity in the lines and routing they each utilized for that not to have happened. The famed 7th (the boxcar hole) at Lawsonia is a pretty good example -- a death or glory short hole, where not hitting the green results in a severe, severe penalty, but the shot is not long, and the green large and receptive. Interestingly, I've always thought L/M missed out on the opportunity for a first-rate Biarritz at Lawsonia's 10th, where they clearly had the room to design one. It's a very good par 3, probably second toughest after the 4th, but it could have quite easily incorporated a large green with a big swale, which L/M built into a number of other Lawsonia greens. Maybe an indication that L/M wanted to embody the spirit of Raynor without going for full replication holes.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2006, 10:53:37 PM »
I didn't see much true Redan at Stevinson Ranch - the right side of the green actually repelled shots off to the right.  There was some movement toward the left on the green surface itself, but there was no way, at least not IMHO, that a low draw hit toward the right side of the green could bounce onto the green.

What Bill didn't see ...



After today's playing, I will admit that the closely mown chipping area that fronts the green is fairly steep and could kick a ball to the right, especially from the angle of the black tees. But anything that gets more than a foot or 2 onto the green is sure to go towards the back left.

The native grasses are much browner this time of year than in the photo... and the flagsticks are currently draped with 20 foot-long cobwebs. Great weather today (75F, calm, sunny). Hooray for California!
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2006, 11:01:05 PM »
Reverse Redan #12 at Metairie CC in New Orleans, Raynor with restoration by Ron Forse.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2006, 11:01:16 PM »
Kyle - one you might know and love:

#14 at Saddle Creek GC, Copperopolis, CA.

Not a true redan since it plays quite a bit downhill,
but the green and surrounds sure work like a redan.
Great fun to sling one in from the right to a back left pin.

TH

Tom,
I have played it. I mostly just remember that hole for its monsterous length (~225 from the blues, ~250 from the blacks, right?). My ball bounded straight through the right side of the green into the bunker behind, so I don't remember it playing like a redan, but this probably stems from the downhill nature of the whole, as you described.

Pretty course. Pretty expensive as well if you don't shop carefully.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Less-Known Redans
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2006, 11:04:22 PM »
The reverse redan at # 8 at The Creek,
The 1st hole, a par 4 at The Creek
The 17th at Pacific Dunes
The 4th at Hidden Creek
The reverse redan at # 13 at Morris County
The 3rd at The Knoll
The 3rd or 12th at Hackensack ?
The 3rd on the 4th nine at Montclair
The 7th at Forsgate.

George Bahto,

Would the 2nd green at Essex County East have its roots in a pseudo redan design ?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2006, 11:05:23 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back