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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2003, 07:16:58 AM »
Rich,

In a recent discussion on blindness we had, I could have sworn that you said you absolutely HAD to see every moment (flight, bounce, and roll) of every shot you hit in golf for enjoyment, otherwise it's not good architecture.  What did I miscontrue?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2003, 07:36:41 AM »
Scott

I beleive, and always have, and always have said (I think) that, all things being equal, a shot or hole which allows you to visualize, both before and after the shot, all the possible bumps and rolls, is prefereable to one which does not.  I've also always believed and said (I think) that blind holes can be fun.

If you have been misinformed by your interpretation of some of my previous posts, I apologise.  (Insert smiley face here!).

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2003, 07:44:22 AM »
SPDB.
Thank you for the slight adjustment - cmon, I was only one hole out?

I agree, It's definately one of the toughest I've seen both as a player and as a designer.

james
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
@EDI__ADI

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2003, 07:53:40 AM »
Rich,

Fair enough.  I'd hate to have had to look up that conversation to see what really was said.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2003, 08:00:06 AM »
IMHO a much underated hole has a great blindness to it. The 11th tee shot at PB is a shot where the majority of golfers, good and bad have some trepidation. Which translates to a less than stellar drive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2003, 08:11:01 AM »

Quote
If you have been misinformed by your interpretation of some of my previous posts, I apologise.  (Insert smiley face here!).

Good one, Rihc!

You've reminded me of one of the first "corrections" The New Yorker magazine, with its phalanx of fact-checkers, ever deigned to run.

As a matter of fact, they didn't call it a "correction." The New Yorker, after all, couldn't have been WRONG!

The facts (reconstructed from memory, and not officially fact-checked):

The wonderful John McPhee wanted to profile a chef he called "Otto" (not his real name) -- who, McPhee would report, had prepared all of the best meals McPhee had ever eaten. Otto ran a small restaurant out in the country someplace; he was, like McPhee, a perfectionist craftsman of the first rank, who prepared just as many dinners each day as he could manage without compromising his perfectionism or craftsmanship in any way. "Otto" agreed to be profiled, on one condition -- that he never be identified publicly ... or even privately, to McPhee's colleagues. (Otto feared being overrun with business -- and, thereby, ruined!) The editor, Mr. Shawn, agreed to this condition -- meaning that McPhee's profile (titled "Brigade de Cuisine") was the first New Yorker fact piece ever not fact-checked by the fact-checkers.

McPhee's profile was published. I believe it was in Part II that McPhee and "Otto" ventured out into the wider world to eat -- including to McDonald's (I'll never forget that "Otto" was crazy about the Egg McMuffin) and to Lutece ... which was then (and may be still, for all I know) at the unchallenged pinnacle of Manhattan's haute cuisine.

At Lutece, "Otto" ordered the turbot. As he ate it, he was appalled: It had been frozen, "Otto" said. It was not fresh! Scandalous!

Well, one could not make such an accusation without serious repercussions. Either the New York Times contacted the chef at Lutece, or the chef at Lutece contacted the New York Times -- but in either case, the chef was livid, insistent that he would NEVER in the world serve a frozen turbot! Sacre bleu!

What ensued was, for my money, high comedy: The NYT reporter actually journeyed down to the wharves, to inspect the records for the fish purchased by and delivered to Lutece -- records that proved, to the Times' satisfaction, that the turbot "Otto" had eaten the night of his visit had, in fact, been delivered fresh that day.

A week or two later, McPhee published (under, if memory serves, the heading "Department of Amplification") a note acknowledging the error. I cannot quote it in its entirety -- but it went very much like this ... and I'll never forget the last line, which I'm quite sure I'm quoting here verbatim: "... Chef Otto alleged that the turbot he was served at Lutece was not fresh, but had been frozen. Chef Otto was wrong."

Chef Otto was wrong! Not: I was wrong!

P.S. Of course, the NYT's restaurant critic (Mimi Sheraton at the time, I think) couldn't leave well enough alone -- and surely couldn't let that pipsqueak non-foodie McPhee one-up her! Who was HE to say who made the best dinners ever? That was HER job!

She launched an investigation to find "Otto's" establishment -- and, finally, did ... out in the Pa. countryside somewhere, I think.

She went out there, ate some meals, came back to the newsroom and trashed the joint. Nothing special, she said.

Talk about high comedy!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
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Phil_the_Author

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2003, 05:20:21 PM »
I can't say anything about either the 12th or 13th at the TCC, as I have never been there. I can tell you that their was near universal agreement that the 15th at Bethpage Black was the toughest par four that had been seen in major championship golf in a long time. This was from announcers like MILLER AND Murphy, to players like Mickelson, Faldo, Lehman, Love and numerous others.

In fact many, if not most, of the players felt that the green  had more severe undulations, than any at Augusta. True or not, that is a hell of a green to hit to from 180 - 240 yards away and 50+ feet above you!

I can't imagine a harder shot to get close to a pin you can't see.

Now the dumbest blind hole is on a course I grew up loving and is just across the street from #15 on the Black. It is the 3rd hole on the green.

It is a par three that plays about 125-130 yards straight uphill. It is so far uphill (a good 30 feet or more) that I believe the yardage is measured at length of the ANGLE up the hill, rather than a straight line carry! A terrible hole that leads to a wonderful tee shot on a short downhill par four.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2003, 08:54:08 PM »
Darren,

Of the courses I've played, I'd have to vote for # at NGLA.
For, the following reasons.

Off the tee you have a great number of choices with respect to the diagonal cross bunker and the hill and vale in the distance.  The choice of your tee shot also has a major impact on the lie for your approach shot.  An uphill lie can be acquired the nearer you come to the fronting hill and bunkers.

The second shot is perilous.  Peek or hit it thin and you'll never make it to the green.

For those shots that reach the green, the fun has just begun.
It is one of the most interesting and challenging greens in golf.

For those approach shots that find bunkers, rough or chipping areas, likewise, the fun is just begining.

The golf hole is so multi-dimensional that it offers far more than just blindness.  It offers decisions and challenges on every shot.

If one examines the component shots required to play any blind hole, one would be hard pressed to surpase # 3 at NGLA.

Darren, #5 at Old Marsh is very controversial.
So is the placement of the directional rock on top of the Alp.
Many do not understand that the angle to the pin, evidenced by the rock, is from the mid-point in the fairway.   Those who aren't in the mid-point of the fairway, who execute perfect shots over the rock often find the results vastly unsatisfying and even wet on occassion.  It's also a pretty good driving hole, especially with a wind out of the southeast, with water on the right, and containment mounding and woods on the left.

My only objection to the hole, and others at Old Marsh is the reverse drainage system which by necessity seems to be a bowl creator.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2003, 07:00:59 AM »
Patrick- In our past conversations you've vehemently blasted the 8th at Spanish Bay and if I recall correctly you thought that the blindeness created by the long reeds was the justification for your dis-like. So naturally I am shocked that you find some blindeness acceptable.

Is there a difference in where and how blindeness can or cannot be used?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2003, 07:10:35 AM »
A Clayman,

YES.

It's called H2O.

In addition, the right corner of the green is visible from the right side of the fairway, and directional markers  behind the green, visible as you descend to the fairway, indicate general pin location.

The two holes are as different as night and day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2003, 07:12:33 AM »
A Clayman,

YES.

It's called H2O.

The right corner of the green is visible from the right side of the fairway, and directional markers  behind the green, visible as you descend to the fairway, indicate general pin location.

In addition, your caddy can stand on the top of the hill and give you a directional bearing.  Try having your caddy stand in the middle of the pond and pull that trick off.

The two holes are different, as are the hidden hazards.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

shank

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2003, 08:22:26 AM »
The hole pictured as Old Marsh is a duplicate of #5 at The Ford Plantation a 1983 Pete Dye also a mirror image of #5 at Long Cove also a 1983 Pete Dye, hello Pete anything original in there?

Re: the post above of #3 at National GOlf Links, what a stupid hole.  How can any handicap player even comprehend where to hit it and carry it up hill 200+ yards over 18" fescue?

Anyhow not to rant but I'm not a huge fan of Blind holes, I think #6 at Maidstone is fantastic, also #10 at Shinnecock is a great blind hole once you've seen it.  I think Nationals #2 is a better blind hole than#3, you have the option of blind left or some fairway right.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2003, 09:33:03 AM »
Brian Dillard,

You probably didn't notice it, but the fairway on # 3 at NGLA extends all the way up the right side to within 50 yards of the green.

In fact, the right side of the green is visible from along the entire right side of the fairway whether you're 200, 150, 100 or 50 yards out, you never lose sight of it.
 
This allows any golfer an alternate route, and doesn't force them to make any carry of any length over the hill seperating the two fairways.

I don't see how you can call the hole stupid if you never observed and/or took advantage of the alternate route and
avoidance of the hill and 18" fescue.  The fairway grass along the right side is mowed at about .5" and there is no hill, you effectively go around it, the choice is yours, provided you see and understand the choice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

shank

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2003, 03:12:19 PM »
Patrick Mucci

So as I said it is a stupid hole for the handicap player, if your response is correct you would have the 20 handicap guy hit it from 225 out and lay up in the fairway still 50-55 yards out on a par 4 and with that green?  Thats why I like #2 better, the blind option is there with risk or the semi blind is there for the higher handicap with less risk, both still playing for par or better.

Back to the blind shots, I think the 4th at Pine Valley is real good the first time you see it; after you know how much fairway is there it opens up in future rounds.  Also just realized I called the wrong hole at Maidstone #8 not #6, sorry.

I also like #8 at Eldorado in Cabo, newer Nicklaus.  

Brian

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2003, 05:24:01 PM »
Brian Dillard,

Your post would seem to indicate that you don't understand the 2nd and 3rd holes at NGLA.

If, in your example on # 3, a higher handicap has hit his drive to a point that is 225 from the green, it means that their drive barely clearly the diagonal cross bunker off the tee shot, a tee shot hit from a highly elevated tee to the 3rd fairway far below.  If that is all the distance the high handicaper can muster, with a driver, off a tee, downhill, then a 225 yard shot, off a downhill-sidehill lie, up over a tall hill, is an impossibility.  You've created a flawed example.
But, let's say they have hit that tee shot, then, the alternative route is the route intended for a golfer of their ability, and should be the only route they consider.  
If they hit their next shot 180 yards, then they have a mere 45 yards to the green, which is very visible, although elevated above them.   The entire right side fairway bowls toward the center, helping the higher handicap.  They only have to avoid a centerline bunker 110 yards from the green.

Interestingly enough, you've chosen the 2nd hole as a better hole for the higher handicap player, a player who can barely hit his ball 200 yards downhill, yet, you feel he has a better chance to hit a tee shot on # 2 that requires a drive over a more menacing, steeper hill, that requires a 215 yard CARRY, uphill.  Again, your examples are flawed by impossible shots required in the context of the abilities attributed to your imaginary golfer.  

Even if this golfer hits it further right the CARRY uphill is still significant, probably 170 yards, which is probably outside of his ability.  If they go further right and find the fairway, the approach shot they face is fraught with difficulty and danger.

If we add wind to the equation, if reinforces my position.

You may also want to revisit the schematic that appears in
"Scotland's Gift" and the schematic that appears on the wall in the hallway of the lower clubhouse floor between the locker rooms.  CBMacDonald intended multiple routes for different levels of golfers, and I think, after reviewing the schematics that he recommended the circuitous route on both holes, for the higher handicap player.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2003, 05:33:26 AM »

Quote
quassi- It's my belief that the proliferation of the idea that one must see everything in front of them, rarely reflects real life conditions, and may be responsible for the lack of variety or character in many modern designs. A good mix or use of blind shots or holes is not only exciting to me, but also the thrill of not knowing, until you are near where you thought you were is often surprising. Dealing with surprises is paramount to golfing well, not to mention life.

aclayman,

I read this sometime back but just have time to respond.  This is one of the little jewels I find on this site.  You expressed my sentiments very well in this little paragraph.  I met a few well respected people whom dislike TOC because of the blind tee shots on holes 2 through 7 I believe.  I found it thrilling.  Likewise, I found the blind holes at Cruden Bay exciting as well especially the second time around.  When working with the land it is not enough to leave the terrain alone in many people's mind, you must turn the land upside down so everything can be seen, and when I propose some blindness is not so bad i get a confused look from most people whom "know golf."  I know I enjoyed the blind holes I mentioned above, and it is good to hear others share similar feelings.  There is no right or wrong in my view, there sometimes is poor judgement when accepting a blind shot in some situations, but more than anything it is awfully lonely at times when going up against the knowing experts whom advocate everything must be visible.  If you do not mind I will like to print and keep your quote for future use.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2003, 08:35:27 AM »

Quote
I can't say anything about either the 12th or 13th at the TCC, as I have never been there. I can tell you that their was near universal agreement that the 15th at Bethpage Black was the toughest par four that had been seen in major championship golf in a long time. This was from announcers like MILLER AND Murphy, to players like Mickelson, Faldo, Lehman, Love and numerous others.

In fact many, if not most, of the players felt that the green  had more severe undulations, than any at Augusta. True or not, that is a hell of a green to hit to from 180 - 240 yards away and 50+ feet above you!

I can't imagine a harder shot to get close to a pin you can't see.

Now the dumbest blind hole is on a course I grew up loving and is just across the street from #15 on the Black. It is the 3rd hole on the green.

It is a par three that plays about 125-130 yards straight uphill. It is so far uphill (a good 30 feet or more) that I believe the yardage is measured at length of the ANGLE up the hill, rather than a straight line carry! A terrible hole that leads to a wonderful tee shot on a short downhill par four.

Phil, The green on 12 on the TCC composite course is 180-240 yards out as well, and also requires a shot to a green that is some 50 feet above the player. However, unlike Bethpage, the shot at TCC will more often than not require the player to draw the ball around a stand of trees.

Memories are pretty short when it comes to golf courses the tour players play, and the toughest hole on whatever course they are playing the major on. As far as the tougher hole of the two, I will gladly put my money on TCC 12 (composite) over BPB 15 any day of the week, and 2X on sundays.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2008, 07:24:54 PM »
Cool topic from the archives...from my experiences, the hole I would like to play again BECAUSE OF ITS BLINDNESS is #13 at Royal County Down...nice pick Brauner!

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2008, 07:46:50 PM »
Blindness is a great way to inject benefit from accurate driving while retaining a wide fairway if from a portion of the fairway you can see what you're doing but the other portion of the fairway leaves you a blind shot. Some of Pete Dye's short flip holes have narrow alleys of visibility, often near a water hazard or some other trouble, but the safe side of the fairway's view of the green is blocked.

One of the neatest blind shots I've played is on a Fazio course up in the NC mountains. You drive from a tee that's set way up high. The ground is level for perhaps fifty yards and then it drops off, and and you can't see the landing area until you walk down from the tee about 150 yards. From the tee it has the same feeling as one of those infinity swimming pools. It's not a terribly difficult hole, but the blindness really requires you to trust your swing and stay in control when you really want to bust it being up so high. 

Gerry B

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2008, 06:43:20 PM »
i would have to go with 4 at fishers island with honorable mention to #3 at NGLA


Doug Ralston

Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2008, 11:52:50 PM »
#18 at Tobacco Road is blind from a lot of angles, and hard to judge even if you can see. Very fun hole.

Other blinds there too. Great place to play.

Doug

PS: For whatever reason, both attempts to show #15 at Cruden would not show on my comp. DR

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2008, 05:23:52 AM »
In general, I agree with David.  The best blind holes tend to be those of your own making.  In other words, a poorly placed drive results in a blind approach.  #8 at Hayling is a great example.  Another type is the risky alternative being blind.  Sticking with that greatly under-appreciated links, Hayling, #13 is a cracker.  The 6th at Deal is also very fine.  Of course, the 4th at Sandwich is an awesome hole. 

There are more than a few others which could be mentioned, but the famous hole which bugs me a bit is St Enodoc's 6th.  A blind hole which is often mentioned because of the dune/bunker, but not because its blind - or so it seems.  This hole could be improved if the risky alternative of a lower narrow fairway to the left was built which offers a view of the hole, but a slightly worse angle. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2008, 06:24:11 AM »
Our pro played at Prestwick a few weeks ago, he hated the 5th and felt it ruined the course "Why dont they take the hill down, he said"... I told him if you said that on GCA, you'd get lynched.
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James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2008, 11:25:32 AM »
On the recent thread regarding what makes golf fun I did put something about the excitement of climbing a rise to see if my ball was in the fairway or close to the hole after a blind shot being great fun!

A course with nothing but blind shots would be a bit much, but the occasional blind shot is nothing but great fun even if its not always fair the first time? Who said golf was supposed to be fair? If it was then we would have to have no wind or rain to distract us, nothing but prefect fairways and greens (astro turf perhaps?) and how about balls that beep when you whistle so you can always find them in the rough?

Tricky to choose my own favourite blind hole as you can probably tell from above that I do enjoy them. Perhaps the 17th at Royal Dornoch? Approaching the drop off to see if your ball is in the fairway down below and you get one last look across the links in the distance!

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

John Chilver-Stainer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The best blind hole in the world?
« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2008, 11:57:14 AM »
Or not find it in the gorse James!! :D

One of my favourites is playing the approach to the 14th at North Berwick off a wobbly fairway over the tall black and white post, hoping to roll it on to the green surface, knowing that green falls away to the beach and the North Sea.  :)


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