[Tim Pitner]

Tom, if you are going to be personally insulted by the criticisms of your work - many of which are valid - then I suggest you either stop reading websites and publications or find another line of work.

Anthony,

I'm not sure I caught the basis for Geoffrey's "criticism" of Pacific Dunes.  Was it just "no great holes"?  Of course, I disagree with that.  The only criticism I've heard previously that made some sense to me was that it isn't challenging enough for really low handicap players.  But, that doesn't bother me too much.  Are there other legitimate bases for criticizing PD (something beyond quibbling with a few holes)?

[Tom Huckaby]

At the risk of offending Tom Doak... and keeping in mind that to me this is only a "criticism" in that it keeps it from going higher than #22 US, which I see as VERY high praise, but also about right....

I find the back nine routing to be fun and quirky in the short term, but less so in the long term.  That is, it gets old over the long haul.

That's a pretty minor criticism - or at least I intend it as such.  The individual holes themselves are all great by me.  But something we talk about a lot in here is "flow"... and to me the back nine flow felt less and less fun the more I played PD.  That is, the more I played it, the more I noticed how weird it is.  It's just a lot of par threes for nine holes of golf.

I shall be going back up there in a few months... maybe I'll be proven wrong.  I kinda hope I am.

TH

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Geoffrey, Good point on the more discussion rather than less. I think the ocean views are huge on any course but in this case the more involves the green complexes and just a little edge in the holes. I am not sure why Ganton created some of the same feelings I get at Pacific Dunes. I played them this year a few weeks apart and noticed then. Gantons traps are a big edge over Pacific Dunes from a strategic view point although that is certainly not a weakness at Pacific Dunes. Ganton is just one of the best traped courses in the world. The courses could not be more different on the surface, resort/private, USA/UK, ocean/inland, extremely windy/normal breezes. Both are on good sand based soils and both are very strategic thinking golf courses.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I'm not sure I caught the basis for Geoffrey's "criticism" of Pacific Dunes.  Was it just "no great holes"?  Of course, I disagree with that.  The only criticism I've heard previously that made some sense to me was that it isn't challenging enough for really low handicap players.  But, that doesn't bother me too much.  Are there other legitimate bases for criticizing PD (something beyond quibbling with a few holes)?

Tim - this may be getting out of hand.  Please remember the basis of this thread is Top 10 in the WORLD or Top 10 in the US. We are not criticizing relative to your local muni but within the context of a Merion as an example. Maybe this is the worst aspect of "rating" because we have to get into this nitpicking BUT you have your reasons why Pac Dunes might be better then a Merion and that's fine and would not necessarily be reflected as a black eye.

I understand the son or daughter analogy that was made but this is the kind of discussions we have on this website -

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey, Good point on the more discussion rather than less. I think the ocean views are huge on any course but in this case the more involves the green complexes and just a little edge in the holes. I am not sure why Ganton created some of the same feelings I get at Pacific Dunes. I played them this year a few weeks apart and noticed then. Gantons traps are a big edge over Pacific Dunes from a strategic view point although that is certainly not a weakness at Pacific Dunes. Ganton is just one of the best traped courses in the world. The courses could not be more different on the surface, resort/private, USA/UK, ocean/inland, extremely windy/normal breezes. Both are on good sand based soils and both are very strategic thinking golf courses.

I agree!

[Tim Pitner]

Tom H,

Interesting comments.  I do prefer the front nine at PD to the back, but I always attributed that to my preference for par 4s over 3s and 5s.  I guess I don't think that much in terms of discrete nine holes, especially when you don't return to the clubhouse.  When playing PD, I don't put any sort of period on the round after playing #9 and going on to the terrific par 3s at #10 and #11.

BTW, I'm not here to try to shoot down any criticisms of PD mentioned--I just thought your opinion on PD's back nine was interesting.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Well, given your preference for PD over Pebble Beach, I won't expect you to agree with me about anything non-glowing about the Oregon course.

 

And it remains a very small criticism, if one can even call it that.  Yes #9 obviously doesn't return to the clubhouse, but take note of how the scorecard is constructed, and where one generally finds refereshment stations and the like.  For better or worse, a round of golf is generally separated into two 9-hole units.  I know I can't get away from that thinking, nor do I feel I should...  

And thus for me, it just gets weirder and weirder that there are so many par threes on the back nine.  As I say, I have zero problems with the individual holes - all are great.  But heck, as Geoffrey alludes to, it's tiny things that make up the separations when one gets to the very top of the golf world... and well... for me this is such a tiny thing.  It really does suck that conversations like this tend to focus on perceived negatives, though.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tim - this may be getting out of hand.  Please remember the basis of this thread is Top 10 in the WORLD or Top 10 in the US. We are not criticizing relative to your local muni but within the context of a Merion as an example. Maybe this is the worst aspect of "rating" because we have to get into this nitpicking BUT you have your reasons why Pac Dunes might be better then a Merion and that's fine and would not necessarily be reflected as a black eye.

Geoffrey,

Pacific Dunes is one of my favorite courses, but I'm just a fan, not its parent, so I'm not as sensitive.  What I'm trying to understand is what is the thrust of any criticisms of Pacific Dunes.  I appreciate that we're not comparing it to obviously lesser courses.  So, putting aside whether it belongs in the U.S. or world top 10 (which seems like a hopeless exercise), what are its perceived weaknesses?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - isn't that the problem with this?  We're talking about a course that all have said is most definitely GREAT.  Need it have WEAKNESSES per se to be somehow lesser than others?

I find no true weaknesses at Pacific Dunes - far from it.  My one tiny criticism is sure as hell not a weakness of the course - in fact in a large way it makes it stand out.  

But when comparing greats... well I know this doesn't help Tom Doak - he wants to hear stuff he could have done better (a hubristic thing for any of us to suggest, that's for sure!)... can't one simply conclude that one course is greater than another, without finding fault in the first course?  Aren't there simple degress of greatness?

TH

[PThomas]

... maybe I'll be proven wrong.  I kinda hope I am.

TH

don't worry Huck...you probably will be

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul:

Well, we'll see.  I have played the course quite a few times already... and I believe I'm only getting two more rounds in the next trip... That feeling about "too many par threes" wasn't developed lightly...

TH

[Tim Pitner]

Tom H,

I agree with you to a large extent.  As I said above, I prefer Pacific Dunes to Lahinch, but I think Lahinch is certainly a great golf course.  However, for people to say that Pacific Dunes--generally considered to be a great course--doesn't measure up to certain other elite courses, they must have their reasons.  You've given one--the back nine.  I'm genuinely interested in hearing others.  I haven't played as many of the greats as several of you so I'm trying to learn something.  In what way(s) does Pacific Dunes fall short?  I'm not asking for an individual comparison of PD versus all the courses on Geoffrey's list, just some reasons why some believe that PD might not belong in the stratosphere.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tim

I'm finding myself agreeing with Huck - that and being paired with JakaB may cause my head to blow up too   (that is a joke in case some take it seriously)

Take a course like Pine Valley and to me it has 16-18 world class golf holes that are absolutely unforgetable.  At Merion, at least for me, every single shot be it from the tee down to a 3 foot putt requires absolute attention to detail and has danger or disaster lurking.  Those are values that I (not any rating panelist criteria but my own personal preference) place at the very highest level.

What about short par 4's.  Pac Dunes has the great 6th hole.  Its teriffic but I happen to value the shots required and the greens complexes better on #5, 6 and 16 at Friars Head.  My opinion and taking nothing away from Pac Dunes.

Long Par 4's - 13 at Pac Dunes is great indeed but I like 3 and 13 at Friars Head as much.  I value the long 4's at Bethpage Black more as well.

Par 3's - Pac Dunes has a great set.  I like the set at Whistling Straits better.

par 5's - I think this might be somewhat of a weakness for Pac Dunes relative to some other of the greatest golf courses on the planet. Sand Hills might have the greatest set of all and I also think that Friars Head wins out here with its world class set and especially 7 and 14.

I put the whole package together with each hole and shot required and made my relative judgement. Its not a knock on a truly great golf course and I'll do mre detail if I get some time and you want it.

By the way- Lahinch was the one that upon reflection I would take off my list.

[Tim Pitner]

Thanks Geoffrey--that's exactly the sort of analysis for which I was looking.  I concur that the par 5s at Pacific Dunes may be a relative weakness.  I believe that only one of them--#3--is a great hole, although I've developed a late-blooming fondness for #15.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Tim,

Even Doak himself has admitted to making design concessions at the green because the course is located at a public resort.  The greens could have and should have been so much more....but noooooo...we have to keep the pre-madonna return visitors happy.  That is why I love Bandon Trails..

[Sean Leary]

I've found that like most great courses, Pacific Dunes needs multiple plays for full appreciation.  Part of its brilliance, in my mind is how great, yet differently, it plays in both of the prevailing winds.

In terms of rankings, the difference between being # 10 or Top 30 comes down to personal taste.

[George Pazin]

Tim,

Even Doak himself has admitted to making design concessions at the green because the course is located at a public resort.  The greens could have and should have been so much more....but noooooo...we have to keep the pre-madonna return visitors happy.  That is why I love Bandon Trails..

Tom has said he designed the greens differently, not that there were concessions. There is a difference, albeit one that you might not recognize.

 

[Eric Olsen]

I don't understand why people think less of number 12 and number 18, as par 5s.  12 is brilliant in terms of how opposite it plays in the wind, a reachable par 5 in the winter, and a beast in the summer.  But it is quite the risk to go for the green, with the deep bunker front left, and the green running away from you long, with the little mound on the front right of the green helping the perfect approach funnel back to the whole.  In the summer, the mounds on the right are in play for the golfer who plays up the right side, which is the preferred approach into the green, while any shot, from left or right, must be carefully struck if it hopes to stay on the green, even into the prevailing summer wind.

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

I do agree with you -- PB over PD.

Geoff:

Excellent point on the par-5's at PD -- save for the 3rd hole. I also don't see the qualities of the short 14th being anything special.

Still, PD would rate somewhere int he top 40 -- though closer to the rear than the front of the line on my best course list in the USA. Frankly, I believe one can make a very solid case for the merits of two other Doak courses -- Ballyneal and Sebonack.

[tonyt]

Tom D,

Part of the less constructive (read: off hand comment lacking detail instead of necessarily meaning disrespectful) criticism is, as you'd have well learnt, part of the territory when you achieve what you have. And apologies if you've been misquoted.

By having a portfolio like yours with a number of world class courses and at least 4-5 that many decent architects would dearly love to boast one day as their #1, it means you've entered some lofty heights. When a great golfer, pitcher, singer, actor or whatever is spoken about, comment will range from detailed and complex commentary, to flippant around the barbecue one liners. Some of the flippant stuff will assume the subject's lofty place, and therefore after giving them this "auto" level of greatness, will feel free to pick and whine about elements in the rarified air. 100% fair on you? Perhaps not, but people will be people, and baseball wouldn't be the same without such banter. So consider it high praise that like some "stars", you would be offended if you heard absolutely everything that people who may never have met you have to say. Armchair critics are annoying, but it takes a great in any field to prolifically accumulate them.

My take on Cape Kidnappers is that it is a superb course. But one which is very unique for a number of reasons. Firstly, the site is extreme in many ways. Too extreme to produce a golf course of the greatest standing. So perhaps your achievement with it is better compared with what others may have done with the same site. I suspect a lot less. I also believe that Kauri Cliffs is a reasonable course at best, and yet the site had SO much more to offer. If you compare what was extracted from each site, you win hands down. Of the two sites, KC should have yielded a far better course in my opinion.

CK is a special place. Looking from atop the mountain overlooking the Gimblett Gravels down towards the course location and out to sea is a vista of absolutely jaw dropping beauty, no matter where the viewer may have travelled in their lives. But whilst the fingers on the course and other dramatic features allowed you to show what you can do to work with them, and produce this magnificent result, it does still remain for me a site who's drama and awe will always play a great role in the impressiveness of the place.

Hey, I'm converted. I've played three Doaks and think they are all superb, including two that deservedly have landed like paratroopers in amongst (and ahead of) some great sandbelt courses that many might have thought would never be equalled in this country. And I strongly believe that neither are held so high in a "honeymoon" fashion. And I'm one of those guys who's likely to cry when I get to PD.

So next time I'm lazing around the barbecue with a beer in my hand and spouting that Paraparaumu Beach is still NZL's #1 course, or comparing courses with complete abandon, reflecting that I've invested not a cent or any sweat in each, shrug your shoulders and take the win you've got.

[John Kirk]

Take a course like Pine Valley and to me it has 16-18 world class golf holes that are absolutely unforgetable.  At Merion, at least for me, every single shot be it from the tee down to a 3 foot putt requires absolute attention to detail and has danger or disaster lurking.  Those are values that I (not any rating panelist criteria but my own personal preference) place at the very highest level.

What about short par 4's.  Pac Dunes has the great 6th hole.  Its teriffic but I happen to value the shots required and the greens complexes better on #5, 6 and 16 at Friars Head.  My opinion and taking nothing away from Pac Dunes.

Long Par 4's - 13 at Pac Dunes is great indeed but I like 3 and 13 at Friars Head as much.  I value the long 4's at Bethpage Black more as well.

Par 3's - Pac Dunes has a great set.  I like the set at Whistling Straits better.

par 5's - I think this might be somewhat of a weakness for Pac Dunes relative to some other of the greatest golf courses on the planet. Sand Hills might have the greatest set of all and I also think that Friars Head wins out here with its world class set and especially 7 and 14.

I put the whole package together with each hole and shot required and made my relative judgement. Its not a knock on a truly great golf course and I'll do mre detail if I get some time and you want it.

By the way- Lahinch was the one that upon reflection I would take off my list.

Let's hear from someone who loves Pacific Dunes.

Geoff, I cannot believe you like hole 13 at Friar's Head as well as hole 13 at Pacific Dunes.

Number 13 at Friar's Head is a 490 yard par 4 with a wide fairway, a few well placed bunkers, and a good green in a fairly flat potato field a half mile from the ocean.  A good par 4.5, but there's nothing topographically striking about the hole.

Number 13 at Pacific Dunes is a 420 yard, uphill par 4 that plays into the stiff prevailing summer wind.  The fairway is wild and undulating, and the best angle is achieved by driving down the risky left side.  Then, a solidly struck long iron or fairway wood gives you a chance of reaching the long, sloped green in two.  On your left, the world's largest water hazard.  On your right, a 50 foot high dune serves as the greenside bunker.  The wind intensifies as you walk up to the green, where it howls unabated as you survey the unbelievable beauty that surrounds you, and try to concentrate on getting the ball into the hole.

Hole 13 is the crescendo of the summer round at Pacific Dunes, the finish of a one mile walk up the coast into the wind where the player must play his best to keep the round together.  He then turns back towards the clubhouse and follows the course home.

There are only a few holes I am aware of that match the beauty and challenge of number 13 at Pacific Dunes.  Perhaps 16 at Cypress Point and 8 at Pebble Beach.  No hole at Shinnecock, NGLA, Merion, or any other top 50 course can match its beauty.

The cool summer wind at Bandon is so exhilirating.   I always get just a little more tired playing Pacific Dunes, and I sleep like a baby at night.

Furthermore, most of the other great American courses feature poa annua and other lush grasses that don't allow the ground game to come fully into play.  The wind and fescue at Pacific Dunes separate the golf there from other great American courses.  In fact, nothing I've played comes close, and I really don't see how playing Cypress or Pebble can equal the shotmaking that can be found at Pacific Dunes.

Merion, Winged Foot, and many other parkland classics defend their course with long, wet rough, which is difficult and annoying.

While I respect Tom Doak's opinion almost verbatim, I disagree about Crystal Downs, and believe Pacific Dunes belongs well ahead of Tom's favorite home course, for a variety of reasons.

Pine Valley
Oakmont
Shinnecock
Pebble Beach
Cypress Point...nah...

Many of you guys must have different criteria than I do.  I also think there is a significant bias towards C&C over Doak when evaluating courses, not to mention an east coast bias.  With the exception of hole #1, with its designated environmentally sensitive areas and demanding openng tee shot, there's nothing but great holes, one after another.  And the walk through the dunes, with the ocean hissing and the wind blowing...

Pacific Dunes is the no. 1 course in the US.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John John John

East Coast bias?
C & C bias over Doak - Doak is a smart blue state liberal democrat and Ben is from Texas and a good buddy of W.  How can we east coast liberals be biased towards C & C?
-and- for full disclosure - are you a member of TWO Tom Doak golf courses? -

please- disagree with your tastes and they become bias?

Do you have an ocean bias and something against potatoes?  

What you describe was experience, ambiance and visuals.  #13 at FH has a central bunker right smack in the landing area.  Choose a side and depending on which you can use a turbo boast over the bunker 50 yards or so short of the green to propel your ball on the ground to the green.  The green itself is perched up a bit, quite large with a devilish ridge in in that makes placement for a two putt tricky. There is a fun chipping area to the left if you can carry it over there and need a bail area. It's a wonderful golf hole.

When you mention it ahead of some you did you have a lot of detailing and explaining to do more then just poa annua and rough. Merion's shot values, Oakmont's greens, etc.

Pacific Dunes the #1 course in the US huh - That seems like an Oregon West Coast bias to me.  

[Michael Dugger]

In regards to the back 9 routing feeling weird, is it odd to y'all that there are 7 par 4's on the front?

I here no complaints about that, for some reason

[John Kirk]

John John John

East Coast bias?
C & C bias over Doak - Doak is a smart blue state liberal democrat and Ben is from Texas and a good buddy of W.  How can we east coast liberals be biased towards C & C?
-and- for full disclosure - are you a member of TWO Tom Doak golf courses? -

please- disagree with your tastes and they become bias?

Do you have an ocean bias and something against potatoes?  

What you describe was experience, ambiance and visuals.  #13 at FH has a central bunker right smack in the landing area.  Choose a side and depending on which you can use a turbo boast over the bunker 50 yards or so short of the green to propel your ball on the ground to the green.  The green itself is perched up a bit, quite large with a devilish ridge in in that makes placement for a two putt tricky. There is a fun chipping area to the left if you can carry it over there and need a bail area. It's a wonderful golf hole.

When you mention it ahead of some you did you have a lot of detailing and explaining to do more then just poa annua and rough. Merion's shot values, Oakmont's greens, etc.

Pacific Dunes the #1 course in the US huh - That seems like an Oregon West Coast bias to me.  

Yes, I'm overstating my case, and I'm also speaking from ignorance, since I haven't played most of the top 10 U.S. courses.  I've played Pebble, Merion, and Winged Foot.

Yes, I'm a member at two beautiful Tom Doak courses, one of which, Stone Eagle, gets a little less love here than I think it deserves.

Yes, I live in Oregon.

Friar's Head #13 is a beautifully designed hole on a great golf course, my favorite course during my Long Island visit.  But the course plays through a flattish field most of the time, a field whose visual appeal is primarily limited to the golf course.  I'll argue forever that ambience and visuals are an intrinsic part, in fact the most important component of the golf experience.

Comparing shot values at courses like Oakmont or Merion with Pacific Dunes is awfully tough.  Pacific Dunes features wide fairways, fast turf, and lots of wind.  Old inland park courses have less wind, rough, and narrow bent/poa fairways.  The shot required to play these courses is a high, soft shot.  Low shots, essential for playing in the wind, have little value.  The fairways are too narrow to risk rolling the ball into the rough.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me very few courses force the player to consider playing the ball to roll 50-70 yards, both downwind and into the wind.  On #8 at Pacific Dunes, the second shot can be a 175 yard shot into the wind best played off a bank well right of the green.  Classic parkland courses don't ask the player to anything near that creative.  On the other hand, Friar's Head does, and it would not be a stretch to say I like Friar's Head better than almost all classic courses.

Courses like Merion and Winged Foot have great shot values in a different way.  But they're so hard.  The end result is often demoralization, as the course beats the shit out of you.  One of the things I liked best about Yale is the width.  They give the player some room to play.

I've played Pac Dunes 20+ times.  If I had one criticism to level against the course, it would be that my course strategy, for instance which clubs I hit off the tee, rarely changes.  On a typical summer day, I may hit a different club off the tee on 1, 9 or 16.  But in general I'm trying to attack the course the same way every time.  

 

[Tim Bert]

I haven't played the best courses in the US (according to popular opinion anyway - it's hard for me to provide a reasonable comparison since I haven't seen them.)   I haven't played PVGC, CPC, Pebble, Augusta, Merion, or anything on Long Island.  

I have played Pinehurst #2, Whistling Straits, Sand Hills, Wild Horse, Ballyneal, and all of the courses at Bandon, so I have a reasonable sample of some pretty fine examples of American golf.  

I like Pacific Dunes the best, though the edge vs. Sand Hills is narrow enough that I'd be indifferent if you "forced" me to play one vs. the other.

My favorite nine hole stretch in all of golf is 5-13 at PD, and that includes one of my least favorite holes on the course, #9.  If I could include #4 and make it a 10 hole course I would.  I also think #2, #3, #14, #15, and #17 are outstanding holes.

Whistling Straits has a nice set of par 3s, but I just don't think they stand up to the ones at PD.  I felt like they all had a very similar feel to them, even though there were obvious differences.  As a set, I like the short holes at PD more than any course I've played with the possible exception of Banff Springs.  I'd call it a toss-up between those two.

I agree that as a set the par 5s are the weakest link of this fabulous golf course, and I wouldn't mind a few more contours in the greens, but I'm nit-picking.  With the wind gusting out there, the complexes provide plenty of challenge.

John Kirk, you are my golf hero!  I knew of your memberships but I had no idea you live in Oregon.  You've got the total package - that's the stuff of dreams, and I hope you step back and appreciate it from time to time.  

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