[ChipRoyce]

OK then how about this mix of a few courses around the world that are built on different land, soils and location – compare them with Pac Dunes

Sand Hills
Merion
Shinnecock Hills
Friars Head
Prairie Dunes
Crystal Downs
Seminole
Winged Foot West
NGLA
Fishers Island
Riviera

The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Royal Portrush
Royal County Down
Ganton
Woodhall Spa
Ballybunion
Lahinch
Muirfield
Carnoustie


I purposely left out a few “big names”.  I’ve played them all and I know how I feel –

Geoff;
I haven't played many on the list so hard to stack them up... if I worked with a subset, here's how I'd stack it up

Pacific Dunes
NGLA
Shinnecock Hills (with Pre-2005 Open fairway widths)
Merion
Seminole
Winged Foot West
Riviera

Royal Dornoch
Pacific Dunes
The Old Course
Muirfield
Carnoustie

I know by putting these thoughts out there, I'll get torn to shreds by those who would want to do a hole-by-hole analysis which may show that Course A is more complete and a better layout than Pac Dunes. Maybe my opinion will be tempered over time, but what Doak was able to accomplish there still amazes me and sets this course head and shoulders above what *I've seen so far* (lots of room to add here, including Sand Hills, Friar's Head, Sebonack, Prarie Dunes, Crystal Downs, etc...)

[Geoffrey Childs]

Chip

As TEP says- It's a big world out there - and you certainly have a valid opinion.

I would put Pac Dunes behind every one of those course I mentioned. I remember the Pacific Ocean and the cliffs more then I remember many of the golf holes.

[ChipRoyce]

Geoff;

Funny you say that - I feel similarly about Pebble.

When I played Bandon Dunes, I definately felt that this was a good course with a great view. When playing Pac Dunes, I didn't see the water and views and was enthralled with each hole and how it set up off the tee and then the approach.

If anything, I find that its the greensites that I have the hardest time remembering.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Chip

I purposely left Pebble along with other lightening rods like Pine Valley and Cypress Point off my list.

[Tim Pitner]

Geoffrey,

Regretfully, the only course I've played on your list is Lahinch.  I rate Pacific Dunes over Lahinch, although I haven't played the re-worked Lahinch (I don't know if that would make a difference or not).  Personally, I see a lot of great holes at PD and many of them are not along the ocean.  What's more, the course fits very well with its surroundings, parts of which are spectacular (the coast), and other parts merely interesting.  The courses you mention may or may not be superior to Pacific Dunes, but it's not because PD is in any way dependent on ocean views.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Chip I find the thought of Tom being able to live with the wind and adjust the course over time would make for an interesting evolution. The super staff at Bandon is a totally committed group who assuming continuity will make for great stewarts of the courses for the ages in America. I am saying that knowing there are individuals over each course. Geoffrey, I would think Pacific Dunes belongs with the courses in your list. I have played most of them.

[Mark_F]

Tony,

I haven't played either Pac Dunes or Ballyneal, but just from the photos in Ran's review here, Ballyneal looks better than both Barnbougle and Pacific Dunes.

It's simply awesome.

[Tom_Doak]

The question of whether any course belongs in the top ten of the USA or world is pretty silly.  Some people will NEVER make room for a modern course in that company, and I understand that.  But if the question can even be asked seriously about a modern course, it is pretty damn good.

For the record -- Tony, Mark, whomever -- I have never, anywhere, stated that I think Barnbougle or Ballyneal or any other of my courses is better than Pacific Dunes.  Others have said so, and I would be foolish to argue the point either way, because Pacific is univerally accepted as a great course [with the exception of Geoffrey and John K, no sleep lost there], so by inference the others are as well.  

I have the advantage of having played Pacific Dunes a lot more times than my other top courses and so I can say with some certainty that it works the way we intended, in fact in some places better than we thought.  I can't say the same for Barnbougle or Ballyneal (or Cape Kidnappers or Sebonack or St. Andrews Beach) because I've played less than ten rounds on each.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom Doak

Sleep well but if you go back and read my comments I put PD within a world Top 100.  All the discussion in this thread are honest opinions of where within the top echelon Pacific Dunes fits. If all that is not good enough for you well then too bad. Your sensitivity to anyone saying anything less then TD is a deity on par with the pope isn't very becoming of you.  

[ForkaB]

Sean

Above, Geoff says that he considers all of them to be better than Pacific Dunes.  I agree with him with one or two possible exceptions, and Tom Doak can add me to the list of people who think that PD, whilst very good, is not "great" (great = 3*** on the Michelin scale, and probably including approx. 30 courses in the world.).

[Darren_Kilfara]

Your sensitivity to anyone saying anything less then TD is a deity on par with the pope isn't very becoming of you.  

Is that what you got out of Tom's last post? I didn't think he was showing any excess sensitivity at all, but rather commenting how there will always be dissenting voices amongst a wide consensus. In fact, you seem to be more sensitive to his comment than he seems sensitive to yours!

Anyway, for what it's worth, of your most recent courses (plus one more), here's how I'd rank the ones I've played.

Shinnecock Hills
Muirfield
Pacific Dunes
Royal Dornoch
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
(Pebble Beach)
Ganton
Carnoustie
Woodhall Spa

I've also played the Old Course many times (and love it), but I refuse to rank it against any other golf course - it's so fundamentally different to any other course that I simply can't make an apples-and-oranges comparison like that.

Cheers,
Darren

[Andrew Thomson]

Tom D - there is daylight between Cape Kidnappers and St. Andrew's Beach.  CK is a lookout, StAB is a golf course  

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:

Perhaps you missed some golf architecture while you were admiring the scenery from the top of the cliffs.  Cape Kidnappers isn't sand dunes, and I guess for some people that is the only form of golf that's truly "great" ... but there is a lot of interesting golf up there if you pay attention.

[wsmorrison]

"I have the advantage of having played Pacific Dunes a lot more times than my other top courses and so I can say with some certainty that it works the way we intended, in fact in some places better than we thought."

Tom Doak (and other architects)

I am very interested in what you said in the quote.  Can you give examples of holes that in your mind exceeded expectations and reasons why as well as some examples that didn't quite meet your expectations and why.  

Are there any cases where golfers (from whatever class of play) came up with a way of playing a hole that totally surprised you?

When/if you make changes over time, what are some of the reasons you do so?

[Chris Kane]

Andrew:

Perhaps you missed some golf architecture while you were admiring the scenery from the top of the cliffs.  Cape Kidnappers isn't sand dunes, and I guess for some people that is the only form of golf that's truly "great" ... but there is a lot of interesting golf up there if you pay attention.

Tom Doak, it didn't take long for you to prove Geoff Child's point a few posts back.  For someone who built his name in the business with candid opinion, you don't seem capable of dealing with candid opinion of your own work.

[Andrew Thomson]

Tom,

I didn't miss any golf architecture at all.  I saw some pretty good stuff actually, but its still reliant on amazing scenery.  Take away the view and you have 4 or 5 very good holes, and in comparison to the outstanding St. Andrew's Beach its a glorified lookout.  Just need a stand with some binoculars and a coin slot on the 13th green.

Paraparaumu Beach remains the best course in NZ with daylight second.  

Don't for a minute think that I'm suggesting Cape Kidnappers is no good, its great.  But in comparison to your work at St.AB its a distant second.  If given the opportunity to split 10 games between the two courses I'd play 8 at St. AB and 2 at CK, the second to take the mrs along to enjoy the view.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey

Why did you select those particular GB&I courses to compare with Pacific Dunes?  Where do you place PD with those GB&I courses?

Ciao

Sean

Let me start by saying emphatically that I DO think Pacific Dunes is a great golf course and I think that should have been clear when I said it was solidly in the world Top 100.

However, the discussion was started by a question of whether Pacific Dunes would ever crack the World Top 10 or even the US Top 10.  On that premise I listed at least 10 courses in the US (excluding the 1000 lb. gorilla's like Augusta, Pine Valley and Cypress Point) that I happen to rank higher than Pac Dunes.  Others can certainly disagree but the point was that Pac Dunes ever getting within the stratosphere that the thread started with would be difficult or impossible.  

Similarly, I listed some 10 or so GB & I courses that I am familiar with that on a similar vein and upon reflection all but 1 I would place ahead of Pac Dunes.  Again, this takes nothing away from the greatness of Pac Dunes but I tried to put it in perspective with what is required to break into the very top of the world 100 rankings.

Tom Doak, you or anyone else can disagree with me on my opinions and that's fine.  I didn't appreciate being dismissed by Tom off hand.  If he would like to debate the merits and faults of any course I listed relative to the merits and faults of Pac Dunes I would be glad to do so.

PS- Sean- I think Carnoustie gets a bad rap because its glib, very difficult and not on the shores of an ocean or firth but I think it is truly a great golf course with great architecture and golf holes. I think it deserves a place among the best.  I'll note that I omitted Turnberry which I find to be a great place for a game and a great experience but not up with the others I mentioned.

PPS- Tom Doak - you may say that "some" would never put a modern course within the Top 10 but I think Sand Hills is firmly embedded within the Top 10 in the world and a serious candidate for #1. I don't think I am alone by a LONG shot in that statement.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I played Ganton this summer. I really fell in love with the course. It has an incredible routing and different types of holes that flow so well. That being said Pacific Dunes has many of the same characterisitcs but better. It belongs in the world top 100 and whether it climbs into the top 20 to 30 is debatable at this time but I think it is there or very close. As for the US, whether Pacific Dunes is top 10 or say 18 to 20 is very subjective. I think it belongs in the discussion. I am surprised it is receiving this much flack unless the comment by Tom about modern courses has more merit than I gave credit too.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tiger

I'm surprised that any discussion of courses that try to crack any top 10 or 20 doesn't get even more flack not less.

Does the more you refer to relative to Ganton happen to be the cliffs overlooking the Pacific Ocean?  

I named two modern courses in my US list.  I'll match Friars Head against Pac Dunes and conclude that it has better greens complexes, routing, short par 4's, long par 4's and the 5's are vastly superior.  Only the 3's get the nod from me at Pac Dunes.  So where is the bias against putting modern's in the "upper echelon"?  

[Tom_Doak]

Geoffrey:

I apologize for my comments last night if they offended you.  You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else.

Perhaps an analogy would help here.

Say you've got a daughter who is a standout basketball player.  You're very proud of her.  She's clearly the best in the school, wins conference player of the year, etc.  Most people do nothing but praise her.  But then, there's a guy who goes to the games and sits in the stands and tells anyone who will listen (loudly and repeatedly) when they praise your daughter that she's really not THAT good, she's certainly no Rebecca Lobo, and he starts listing off thirty players who she's not better than, in his opinion.  Yes, he's entitled to his opinion.

For most of you guys, it's not personal, but to a parent (or an architect), it always is.  Which is the main reason I don't republish The Confidential Guide, even though lots of people would buy it.  I'm a parent now, and I can relate better to how other people feel about it.  

I am sorry I reacted by "dismissing you off hand," because that's exactly how your comments felt to me, too -- no real reasons stated, just dismissed as "not good enough".  And I don't need to hear your reasons, unless they contain constructive ways to get better, and not just "not good enough".  So feel free to comment on Sweeney's Macdonald thread instead.  You know a lot about Yale, there ought to be something in there we should take to heart.

[ChipRoyce]

Tom;
To continue your analogy - I think you're daughter (Pac Dunes) is hot!

She's not only one of the hottest chicks I've ever met, but I guess one reason I like her is that she not only looks great in a sun dress, but still likes hanging out with the guys, drinks scotch and even occasionally belches on command.

Granted, there's a bunch of hot chicks I still haven't met (Ballyneal, Portrush, etc...), but right now, she's in my dreams  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom,

I think your analogy is right on but I'm surprised you still feel like a parent. For 20 years I've been pouring my heart and soul into my work as a professional newspaper and magazine reporter and have an estimated 3,000 children, many of which have infuriated people to the point of threatening or chastising me for what I wrote. I still have a letter from a couple that told me I made the death of their daughter more painful because of the story I wrote covering her very public suicide.

One of the first rules of being a professional reporter (I hate the word journalist) is to not personalize the criticism. Why do you care what anybody says about your work? All that is important is how you feel about your work. Geoffrey Childs, who is a great friend, had some criticisms of my book. I didn't get angry with him or dismiss him; I listened to what he said and looked at his points objectively.

It seems to me, after reading many of your posts, that you crave accolades for what you have done. I think deep down anyone who creates for a living craves the same thing, but you can't search out praise on one hand then react negatively when someone knocks your work; it comes with the territory.

Tom, if you are going to be personally insulted by the criticisms of your work - many of which are valid - then I suggest you either stop reading websites and publications or find another line of work.

Anthony

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

Thank you.

The thread was about Pac Dunes and its potential to make it into the world or US top 10.  I didn't feel it necessary to detail the other courses I used in an attempt to show just how difficult that task would be.

I did state emphatically that Pac dunes was a world Top 100 even considering courses I've not played but read about so I'd say your son or daughter is a solid perennial ALL STAR team member.  Man that's hall of fame potential.  I'd hope that any parent would not be offended if their child were not put in the same light as Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretsky.

I also tried not to dismiss as not good enough and I'm sorry if it came across that way.  Its only a single opinion and I did say to each and every one who disagreed that it was fine with me.

So -      

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom;
To continue your analogy - I think you're daughter (Pac Dunes) is hot!

She's not only one of the hottest chicks I've ever met, but I guess one reason I like her is that she not only looks great in a sun dress, but still likes hanging out with the guys, drinks scotch and even occasionally belches on command.

Granted, there's a bunch of hot chicks I still haven't met (Ballyneal, Portrush, etc...), but right now, she's in my dreams  

Chip - you're in real trouble now.  Don't tell a father that their daughter is really hot and in your dreams, especially if you're 20 years or more older!  

[John Kavanaugh]

Hey, let's not forget that Doak insulted me too.  It feels like getting insulted by Sinatra for getting too much tail...I'm in great company.

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