What is the best course on indifferent property?

[T.J. Sturges]

This has probably been debated here before, but I've been thinking about which golf courses are revered more for their architecture than their scenery.  One way to judge would be to list the best courses in the world that are not sitting on ocean front property.  Pinehurst #2 comes to mind, as does Chicago Golf Club, but what others would this panel consider to be world class golf courses on "indifferent" property?

Of course, defining "indiferrent" property will be a variable open to interpretation as well.  What do you all think?

TS

[Phil Benedict]

Winged Foot is on a pretty bland piece of ground.

[Matthew Delahunty]

Kingston Heath is up there.

[Adam Clayman]

I've heard TOC described as a cow pasture.

[cary lichtenstein]

TOC was a cow pasture until a swarm of kyrponite meteorites hit and killed all the cows, leaving deep holes scarring the moon like landscape.

Then some genius came along, probably in a drunken state and made what would become wonderful but irregular smooth/bumpy areas and called them greens.

Later someone built a hotel and road right at the edge of one of the closing holes, so someone invented a wooded object to a ball could be lifted over the manmade structure.

And that, my friends, is the end of the story.

[Jim Franklin]

Shadow Creek. Pretty flat, dry, barren piece of property. Doesn't get much more indifferent than that.

[Gary Slatter]

TPC Sawgrass?

[Dean Paolucci]

Old Memorial was amazing rising from a swamp.  Wonderful golf course for modern architecture.  Unless a swamp is considered ocean front.  Bayonne is an ocean front property as well.  How about Liberty National on a "Super Fund" site.  I think even with the Ocean front designation toxic waste has to rank up there with a crappy piece of property with a pretty terrific outcome.  Very enjoyable.

[Jim Franklin]

redanman -

You may have a winner with Bayonne. Good call.

I like Shadow better than Old Memorial though. Vegas baby, Vegas .

[PThomas]

Old Works in Montana is certainly a contender

Harborside courses in Chicago deserve a mention

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, I'd have to say Sawgrass...although the sod farm that is now Tallgrass wasn't a beauty contest winner before Gil shined her up like a new penny.  Rawls course is an obvious candidate too.

[wsmorrison]

Indian Creek was created on a flat man-made island 3' above sea level.  Portions of the golf course are 30' above that grade.  Every contour is man-made but, save most greens and tees, looks very natural.

Boca Raton South (no longer exists) was a tremendous accomplishment on flat land with no more than 10' of elevation change.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Without breaking the bank or actually making fundamental changes to the nature of the crappy site - which I think is a better accomplishment and more applicable as a model for others to emulate-

Modern

Talking Stick North AND South

Classic

Chicago Golf
Grden City Golf Club

[George Pazin]

What has always intrigued me more than the question of making the best of a crap site is what course makes the most of a normal, average site.

It's easy to say courses like Merion, Oakmont, etc, possess great land, but is it really that much different than surrounding land? I don't think Oakmont is, yet there are no other Oakmonts in western PA. How did Wilson and Fownes see greatness? Why are their courses 10s, but the vast majority of courses on similar land not even close?

[Geoffrey Childs]

George

That really is the most interesting question of all - If you could answer it you would be a rich and famous golf course architect  

[Evan_Green]

Perhaps Carnoustie? Maybe not THE best but up there...

[Dan_Callahan]

After reading Ran's description of Black Rock, I'd say that course has to be up there.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I don't think any course built on a sandy base can be considered "indifferent" property, even if it's dead flat and somewhat featureless.  Just being built on sand gives it a leg up on everything else.  

I'd have to say Winged Foot West..... the land isn't even one of Tillie's 10 Best sites yet it may be his best finished product.

[Evan_Green]

Jimmy

In suggesting Carnoustie -  I wasn't taking into account the soil composition, rather the lack of natural features/ flatness of terrain - but thats an interesting point - if you were to consider soil as a major criterion, then it would certainly be impossible for a links to qualify.

[Mike Benham]

If you are going to suggest Carnoustie, then you have to include Kingsbarn ...

[Evan_Green]

Good point Mike, but for the coastal land on #12 and #15 alone I cant consider Kingsbarns totally indifferent no matter how bad the rest of the land was.

[Jay Flemma]

The land at Black rock, while particularly stony, was pretty good terrain for golf, at least I thought.

Also I like Jimmy's thinking that sandy soil may factor against a site being lousy...good analysis there Jimmy.

I also thought Talking Stick may have been a candidate too, but the natural setting in the Mtns is better than the sod farm of tall grass.

Winged foot is a rolling verdant site with more interest than either TG or Rawls Course...

[peter_mcknight]

What about Oakmont with its extremely heavy clay soil?

If there is a debate between TPC Sawgrass and WFW, WFW would have to win hands down.  Sawgrass could have been so much better, especially the start and in mid-round.

[cary lichtenstein]

Shadow Creek, Whistling Straits, Southern Dunes, probably Bayonne from the pictures, Ritz in Jupiter are all excellent courses given the unremarkable land.

Jim Engh's Sanctuary is remarkable given the fact that 4 architects turned the project down and claimed the land was unsuitable for a golf course.

[Mark_F]

Royal Melbourne East?