Did growing up in Ohio hurt Jack's game?

[Glenn Spencer]

19 of the last 20 NCAA Men's Division I Golf Championships have been won by southern or western universities.

All five of the top-rated U.S. juniors are from southern or western states.  

Of the top 30 money-winners on the U.S. tour this year, it looks like 26 grew up with year-round golf, or went to colleges that had year-round golf.  Mostly grew up there, btw.  

It looks like eight of ten of the world's current top ten grew up in areas that had year-round golf, and nine of ten went to college in such areas.  

It's not a huge stretch to think that being able to practice and play year round is likely to produce better golfers, compared to only being able to practice and play eight or nine months a year.  I've found a fair amount of evidence that supports the idea.  Nearly all of today's top golfers were able to play golf 12 months a year as they were forming their games.  

Jack produced a fantastic record.  Does that mean he could not have become a better golfer?  Other top pro's said he only played in his spare time.  He himself says he wishes he had practiced his short game more.  Maybe just maybe he would have, had he been more than a part-time golfer.      

Jim,

I grew up in Ohio and played junior golf amongst some real guns. The reason that most of the highly-ranked juniors are from the southern and western states is because they are ranked based on a points list and those kids have many more opportunities to earn those points. The colleges are better because the some good kids leave Ohio and Illinois and some don't. In Tiger's 3 US Junior victories, he beat kids from Illinois, Wisconsin and Ohio in the finals. Development later on and talent are much more important than where you are from.

[Jim Nugent]

Cary -- Tiger showed in 2000-2002 how Jack would have truly dominated, if he had a world-class short game.  Tiger hit as many greens then as Jack ever did, and took apart the par 5's.  i.e. similar ball striking.  But Tiger also had the best short game.  If Jack's short game had been great instead of mediocre, no one would have come close to touching his records.  

[A.G._Crockett]

The days of excelling in multiple sports are over.  The competition is too intense now for kids to play more than one sport beyond adolescence.  In today's world, a prodigy like Jack Nicklaus would concentrate on golf at an early age and his family would move to the South or send him away to a golf academy.  All-around athletes (eg Mike Souchak who played football at Duke) are a thing of the past.

It isn't just sports - high school kids find it difficult to have more than one extracurricular activity of any kind.  Most of the incentives are for concentrating on doing one thing very well, whether it's playing a sport or a musical instrument or whatever.

Phil,
I understand what you are saying, but it isn't quite that bad yet.  Plenty of HS athletes still play football and either basketball or baseball, just to use the "big three" sports.  

Nobody can play basketball and baseball both anymore at the HS level, though, because both sports go all summer long.

My experience with junior golfers here in GA (pretty close to a 12 month golf season) is that very few play other sports past the recreational level.  In most cases, though, I think its because they gravitated away from the other sports due to the demands for size, speed, strength.

As to Nicklaus, for all we know, he might have been HELPED by being in Ohio!  I would assume golf is a fall sport at the HS level there if he also played HS baseball.  By playing golf in the fall, he didn't play football and potentially get physically torn up!  

In any event, I do not believe that it is necessary to focus on one sport to succeed, even in 2006.  The "focus" comes from the demands of things like AAU basketball coaches or travel team baseball coaches for continual participation, rather than the need of the athlete to develop a better skill set.  It is a very, very unfortunate trend that really doesn't have much to do with athletic excellence.  It's more about money.

[Jim Nugent]

Glenn -- how long is the golf season in Columbus OH, where Jack grew up?  From when to when can you play outside?

Some good points you made.  Still it appears to me that almost all the top pro golfers today grew up in areas where they could play year-round.  Include where they went to college, and the figure is around 90%.  Is that just coincidence?  

[Mike Hendren]

I recall a photo of a young Nicklaus hitting balls through the open end of a quonset hut.

[A.G._Crockett]

Cary -- Tiger showed in 2000-2002 how Jack would have truly dominated, if he had a world-class short game.  Tiger hit as many greens then as Jack ever did, and took apart the par 5's.  i.e. similar ball striking.  But Tiger also had the best short game.  If Jack's short game had been great instead of mediocre, no one would have come close to touching his records.  

Yeah, but Jack DIDN'T have a world class short game!  This is kind of like saying that if Cy Young had been able to hit homeruns, he would have been better than Babe Ruth.  The point is, he couldn't hit home runs!

[Lou_Duran]

OSU had an indoor hitting station and a bunker, as I recall, in the basement of the pro shop.  I don't know if they used French Field House, but I think there was an indoor, fully netted  baseball diamond.  In the mid 1970s, a med student I know played on the Grey course every day in January.  And the golf teams have access to southern courses throughout the winter (I understand that they have use of corporate and personal jets for quick jaunts to areas with more ameanable weather).  

[Jim Nugent]

Yeah, but Jack DIDN'T have a world class short game!  This is kind of like saying that if Cy Young had been able to hit homeruns, he would have been better than Babe Ruth.  The point is, he couldn't hit home runs!

I agree, which brings us back to the original premise, or question, of this thread.  If Jack had been able to practice year round up until he was 21 years old, instead of eight or nine months, might he have become a better golfer?  

Lou -- I hit into indoor nets in the winter sometimes.  IMO it is a real poor cousin to playing outside.  And the bunker did not seem to help Jack much.  I think he was one of the worst bunker players on tour for many years.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn -- how long is the golf season in Columbus OH, where Jack grew up?  From when to when can you play outside?

Some good points you made.  Still it appears to me that almost all the top pro golfers today grew up in areas where they could play year-round.  Include where they went to college, and the figure is around 90%.  Is that just coincidence?  

Jim,

If you are asking how long can you play, my answer would be from about March 15th to November 1st. I think productive play is more the telling story and that is really from about April 15th until October 15th. For me, I didn't start expecting to regularly play until after the Masters and then the high school golf season ended around the first couple of weeks in October. For a good junior golfer in Ohio, high school golf is very far down the list as far as importance. Summer trumps it considerably. The conditions of the golf course and the weather are not consistent, but, from May 15th to September 15th though. Everything else is hit and miss. Tournaments, local and statewide are not scheduled before or after these dates typically, except season ending team events.

[A.G._Crockett]

Yeah, but Jack DIDN'T have a world class short game!  This is kind of like saying that if Cy Young had been able to hit homeruns, he would have been better than Babe Ruth.  The point is, he couldn't hit home runs!
[/quote

I agree, which brings us back to the original premise, or question, of this thread.  If Jack had been able to practice year round up until he was 21 years old, instead of eight or nine months, might he have become a better golfer?  

Lou -- I hit into indoor nets in the winter sometimes.  IMO it is a real poor cousin to playing outside.  And the bunker did not seem to help Jack much.  I think he was one of the worst bunker players on tour for many years.  

Two things:
1. We'll never know about Jack and the year-round thing, but he seemed to thrive on staying fresh.  For all we know, he would have burned out and be a lesser golfer, not greater.

2. His short game seems to get worse by the year!  I remember very little talk about Jack having a "bad" short game during his career; I do remember him being called a mediocre wedge and bunker player, but that was more in comparison to his long game than other players on Tour.  I'd be curious to see Tour stats from the era as to whether or not he was really "bad".

[John_Conley]

Of the top 30 money-winners on the U.S. tour this year, it looks like 26 grew up with year-round golf, or went to colleges that had year-round golf.  Mostly grew up there, btw.  
   

The University of Florida isn't known for having many players from Florida.  Mike Weir went to BYU but is Canadian.  Tim Herron went to New Mexico and is from Minnesota.

Chris DiMarco is from New York but went to high school and college in Florida.  Nick Gilliam and Andy North are from Wisconsin.  Of course good players gravitate to places where they can play more.  But Fred Couples is from Seattle, not Houston.

There is a very short list of great champion golfers from Florida, which seems to fly in the face of your logic.

[Phil Benedict]

Without having any data to prove it, my guess is that kids who excel in an individual sport tend to specialize earlier.  Tennis players reach their prime at an earlier age and the sport places a premium of repetitive hitting.  It's no accident that the original sports academy was the Bollettieri School. Golf also emphasizes repetitive hitting with an incredible diversity of shot-making required.  Nowadays kids have to concentrate on these sports at an earlier age in order to compete.

Turning to the Nicklaus/Tiger comparison, one difference between them is that Tiger successfully competed up in age, winning the Junior Am at 15.  At that point in his career power was not among his advantages so he had to develop his short game in order to win.  It's my impression that Jack, who never won the Junior Am, was always a big kid and probably had a power advantage at an early age.  He could depend on power when Tiger couldn't.  Plus, and this is an opinion, I don't think Jack really loves golf the way Tiger or Arnie do.  He loves succeeding at competitive golf but golf for his own sake isn't that compelling to him.  I don't think he enjoyed working on his game the way Tiger does.

[John_Conley]

Jim, are you looking at the same list I am?  Here are the top Americans on the US PGA Tour money list and their home state.

Tiger - CA
Furyk - PA
Phil - CA
Toms - LA
Campbell - TX
Cink - GA
Love - NC or SC
Quigley - RI
Wetterich - OH?
Wilson - HI
Oberholser - CA
Glover - not sure, southern state
Johnson - IA
Curtis - OH (I think)
Pernice - CA?
Henry - CT
Stricker - WI
Herron - MN
Verplank - TX or OK
Lehman - MN
Taylor - not sure
Kelly - WI

That's something like 10 out of the top 22 Americans that didn't play year round as kids.

[A.G._Crockett]

Without having any data to prove it, my guess is that kids who excel in an individual sport tend to specialize earlier.  Tennis players reach their prime at an earlier age and the sport places a premium of repetitive hitting.  It's no accident that the original sports academy was the Bollettieri School. Golf also emphasizes repetitive hitting with an incredible diversity of shot-making required.  Nowadays kids have to concentrate on these sports at an earlier age in order to compete.

It isn't the same thing, though, to say that you have specialize and go year-round earlier to compete in junior golf (or tennis) as it is to say that you have to excel at junior golf to be an adult professional. I don't know of a reason that would be true.

[Lou_Duran]

A.G.,

I think you're right.  Nicklaus' short game was poor in comparison to his power game which was without peer.  He was an excellent putter, particularly lagging and never missing the short ones under pressure.  He seldom missed greens.  How little he played or, as some have speculated, practiced, is not important.  His record is still the best, and if Tiger does surpass it, all the more power to him.  I am still waiting for a hard-nosed consistent competitor to push Tiger.

BTW, when Jack's long game started to decline, he did concentrate on his short game with the assistance of Phil Rogers.  It seems that he did precisely what we are taught to do, i.e. invest our practice time on those things which will yield the best return- our short game because we miss most greens.

[George Pazin]

One of the most interesting things I read about Jack was in his autobiography, where he related how he spent his summers as a young boy.

He said that his parents would drop him off at the country club early in the morning, he would play 18, maybe get a lesson, have some lunch, play another 18 and then go to the practice range and then the practice green till his parents came to pick him up for dinner. That was an average day.

It also brings to mind my favorite Steve Elkington story, related in his book on the golf swing (damn those are pretty pictures!):

Steve was playing in a tournament when he was young and a buddy was caddying for him. The guy wondered how Steve was handling the pressure.

Steve said to him "Do you remember playing cowboys and Indians growing up?

"What?" said the guy.

"The kids game, cowboys and Indians, do you remember playing that?" said Steve.

"Of course, everybody does," said the caddy.

"I don't. Playing golf is all I remember," said Steve.

I doubt there are many, if any, guys on tour who had childhoods much different.

[Steve Lang]

 

Varsity High school sports, back in late 60's Toledo, OH:

fall: football, wrestling, cross country, golf, tennis, begin basketball
winter: basketball, wrestling, swimming
spring: end basketball, baseball, track, golf, tennis

fall/spring: city soccer league,.. HS club level

summer: I believe there were some rules not to play organized varsity sports.. till football tryouts in late summer

summer: AAU sports: baseball, track and swimming

You played sports of the season and held on to passing season until major league championships were done.. not unusual in summer to play baseball or golf in AM, go swimming and play tennis in afternoon..

Sledding and tobagganing were prohibited in winter if you were on a varsity sport.. no one ever enforced that one..

Columbus more ice than snow..

[JESII]

Turning to the Nicklaus/Tiger comparison, one difference between them is that Tiger successfully competed up in age, winning the Junior Am at 15.  At that point in his career power was not among his advantages so he had to develop his short game in order to win.  It's my impression that Jack, who never won the Junior Am, was always a big kid and probably had a power advantage at an early age.  He could depend on power when Tiger couldn't.  Plus, and this is an opinion, I don't think Jack really loves golf the way Tiger or Arnie do.  He loves succeeding at competitive golf but golf for his own sake isn't that compelling to him.  I don't think he enjoyed working on his game the way Tiger does.

Glenn Spencer may be able to answer this better, but I began hearing abou thow far this kid hit the ball almost as soon as I began hearing about how good he was. there was a story from an AJGA event that had a long drive contest across a river he was the only player to reach the other side. I think it was something like a 295 carry if my memory serves. This was not late in his juniour playing days, it was early in my awareness of him.

For what it's worth, he was always long. I think he has said that his short game and recovery creativity evolved because he hit the ball all over the place and loved finding a way to make par.

[Phil Benedict]

AG,

A champion golfer can still come from a state where golf isn't a year-round game, but I think the trend is for gifted kids to head South as soon as they can.  It's probably not as pronounced as in tennis, which pioneered the "academy" concept but it's heading in that direction.  This applies to other sports as well.  I think Bollettieri/IMG has a baseball division now, for example.

Nicklaus may have had Jack Grout but he didn't have high tech video, a fitness coach, a sports psychologist or a nutritionist.  It's a different world.  He developed his game in the proverbial dark ages.  For that matter, Hogan would probably reached his prime much sooner if he had modern technology to help him find the secret.

[Glenn Spencer]

Turning to the Nicklaus/Tiger comparison, one difference between them is that Tiger successfully competed up in age, winning the Junior Am at 15.  At that point in his career power was not among his advantages so he had to develop his short game in order to win.  It's my impression that Jack, who never won the Junior Am, was always a big kid and probably had a power advantage at an early age.  He could depend on power when Tiger couldn't.  Plus, and this is an opinion, I don't think Jack really loves golf the way Tiger or Arnie do.  He loves succeeding at competitive golf but golf for his own sake isn't that compelling to him.  I don't think he enjoyed working on his game the way Tiger does.

Glenn Spencer may be able to answer this better, but I began hearing abou thow far this kid hit the ball almost as soon as I began hearing about how good he was. there was a story from an AJGA event that had a long drive contest across a river he was the only player to reach the other side. I think it was something like a 295 carry if my memory serves. This was not late in his juniour playing days, it was early in my awareness of him.

For what it's worth, he was always long. I think he has said that his short game and recovery creativity evolved because he hit the ball all over the place and loved finding a way to make par.

I vaguely remember hearing something about that story, but I was not there for it or know anyone well that was. I was in a long drive contest with Tiger at the US Junior and he hit one 314 out of 3 tries, but he lost to a 322 and that was slightly uphill. Two weeks later at the BIG I tournament at Pinehurst he dusted the long drive field by some 35 yards. I find it hard to believe that Jack had more of a distance advantage than Tiger had, he was long, when it made a difference to be long. Also, at 14 Tiger won the BIG I by beating Stewart Cink the last day in Texarkana, my friend was in the long drive contest and he was EXTREMELY long and talented at 6'6" and later played basketball at BC. Tiger was all he could talk about when he got back. I believe he also won the PGA Junior that year beating Chris Couch with distance. Anyway, I believe Tiger won that long drive as well. He was legendary when it came to distance and short game, I think his putting has improved the most.

[JESII]

Another cool story I heard about Woods in his amateur days is from his first British Open (maybe '95). During a practice round with John Daly they decide to have a little long drive contest on whatever hole they are on.

The story goes that Daly goes first and admittedly kills one. Tiger than hits his and claims that as soon as he saw it turning over he knew he had it. And he did. This is when Daly was miles longer than everyone else, unlike today.

[Glenn Spencer]

Another cool story I heard about Woods in his amateur days is from his first British Open (maybe '95). During a practice round with John Daly they decide to have a little long drive contest on whatever hole they are on.

The story goes that Daly goes first and admittedly kills one. Tiger than hits his and claims that as soon as he saw it turning over he knew he had it. And he did. This is when Daly was miles longer than everyone else, unlike today.

Yes, that one I heard about as well. It is really too bad that Woods vs. Trip was at Sawgrass. I would have loved to have seen that somewhere else. Hank Kuehne was also in that US Junior from up above, but for some reason not in the long drive. He must not have been in the fairway, because 289 is all that was required to get into the finals. For what it is worth, I still think Tiger is the longest golfer in the world that can break an egg, he can show you more when he has to. If there is a par 5 that simply must be reached, my money will always be on him.

[A.G._Crockett]

AG,

A champion golfer can still come from a state where golf isn't a year-round game, but I think the trend is for gifted kids to head South as soon as they can.  It's probably not as pronounced as in tennis, which pioneered the "academy" concept but it's heading in that direction.  This applies to other sports as well.  I think Bollettieri/IMG has a baseball division now, for example.

Nicklaus may have had Jack Grout but he didn't have high tech video, a fitness coach, a sports psychologist or a nutritionist.  It's a different world.  He developed his game in the proverbial dark ages.  For that matter, Hogan would probably reached his prime much sooner if he had modern technology to help him find the secret.

Phil,
If this was all there was to it, we would dominate the Ryder Cup.  I see no evidence that we are getting better adult golfers (or any other sport, for that matter) from the specialization of athletes at a young age, including the part of the country/climate that they might be in.

An instructive comparison;  FT shooting is worse in NCAA basketball and the NBA now than any time since the mid-1950's.  Most basketball coaches (including ex-coaches like me  ) believe that the decline is directly attributable to AAU basketball; players spend the off-season going 5 on 5 with their AAU team, instead of working on individual skills.  Perhaps year-round competition in golf has had a similar effect?

BTW, using Tiger (or Jack) as a measuring stick may not work.  They are, to some extent, freaks touched by God in ways that we can't fully understand.  Nolan Ryan threw 95 mph until he was in his late 40's with few arm injuries; he was a freak.  Same with Gordie Howe.  Same with a guy like Jordan in hoops.  They're different, and you can do everything that they did and it doesn't come out anywhere near the same.

[Glenn Spencer]

One part of this scenario that I would like to discuss is that growing up in Ohio does prepare you for just about anything that you will see in golf sans Bermuda grass and links golf. I think when you combine the weather and the difficulty of the courses and variety of great architecture in the state, it has very few peers. When Jack was playing Scioto, I imagine it was in the top 30 in the country at that time. Most courses with brutal reputations have a tough time standing up to the constant difficulty that you can find in Ohio. Just my thoughts, but California doesn't have the rough that Ohio does, Florida doesn't have the amount of great courses and either does Pennsylvania and New York doesn't have the length typically. The roughest day in Ohio can prepare you for just about anything that you will face. I think Jack's seasoning and experiences were just as much of a factor.

[Phil Benedict]

Tiger started playing competitive golf at a very early age.  At some point in his early competitive career, he was competing against older, bigger and more powerful kids - maybe as a 9-year old competing against 12-year olds.  (I'm being fairly Mucci-esque here in refusing to concede a point, don't you think?)  That's when he needed the short game to offset the power shortfall - plus he was wilder than a March hare once he got strong.