[Scott Stearns]

Are there clubs that actively discourage their membership from inviting raters?

I am not asking about clubs that don't allow raters to play unaccompanied---there are many places that treat raters the same as everyone else.

my question is, are there any clubs where a member will get a phone call or a talking-to if he merely inviites a rater to play as his guest?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Yes there are numerous policies depending on the club.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

I do know of a couple of clubs where members have been asked not to host specific raters.  However, I think that is nothing more than a different way of seeking status.  The clubs I mentioned already have the ranking in their back pocket and aren't worried about it slipping too much -- as long as it doesn't!!!

[Brad Klein]

Scott, I know of at least a dozen clubs that have a "ratings committe" or someone assigned/appointed to oversee that effort -- usually to attract, monitor and shape the process. I also know of many clubs where the pro or marketing director will call me or let me know that "21" or "17" or "only 3" raters have visited them recently, and usually they have their names. Sometimes they are close, but lots of raters sneak by them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

From my experience, the clubs that discourage raters are the putter, and the lob wedge from about sixty yards in, similar to the rest of us......

[TEPaul]

Yes. A past president of Seminole did a good deal of very fine restorative work on the course in an attempt to get the course back up near the top of the ranking lists where he felt it belonged.

For some reason that didn't happen so his reaction was to ban all raters and inform the ranking magazines that he'd appreciate it if they'd remove Seminole's name from the lists altogether.

He was on the right track, in my opinion, but he stopped too soon. He should have continued his campaign and attempted to discourage all raters from being raters.  

If raters are going to rate courses I think they should at least do it like deep cover spies.

They should do it like the famous NY Times food critic Craig Claiborne who entered a restaurant incognito only to be recognized during the meal by the staff.

The chef rushed out of the kitchen and said:

"Mr Claiborne, Mr. Claiborne, how did you find the beef?"

Claiborne:

"I found it quite by accident under the potatoes."

[Brad Klein]

What a concidence, Tom. Recently, upon a visit to a course, I came disguised wearing, of all things, a golf hat. My discretion continued in the pro shop aftere the round when the pro asked how I found the course. I said "via Map Quest."

[Chris Cupit]

Years ago, maybe 10, I received a letter from my club asking all the members to refrain from knowingly hosting someone who was a rater.

[Joel_Stewart]

There are a few clubs I have seen recently that not only don't allow panelists they don't want their clubs to be ranked.  Nicklaus club in Florida called the Bear's Club come to mind.  Nicklaus told a story last year that his members already knew they were the best so why have panelists come in and under rank it or not rank it?  

Friars Head has been anti-ranking since it opened.  I believe Kenny just doesn't believe in ranking courses against each other?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dick Zokol's been consistlently vocal about disallowing raters at Sagebrush when the course opens some time early in 2008. He's simply against comparing courses, too, and thus rankings in general.  

[Gary Slatter]

When Mad River opened July 5, 1991, Bob Cupp told the owners that the course was nominated for "best new course" and they asked the name to be withdrawn, they were not interested.

[Tommy Williamsen]

  Tom Paul,  When i play a private course with a member I don't let the staff know I am on the ratings panel.  There are other private clubs that want us and I need to let them  know I am on the panel to be abale to play it.  Some public course I will pay for play and some I don't.  Pat of me decision is based on whether or not I really want to play the course.  
As for clubs that do not want raters, they are few and far between.  There are some, however, who insist that panelist be invited by a member.

[Bob_Huntley]

I think I would like Kenny and Dick Zocol.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

I saw where Augusta National was needing a few to check out the new changes.....I don't know who to contact there.....

[Jeff_Mingay]

I think you'd like those two gents as well, Bob. I do  

[Jeff_Lewis]

Panelists should be:
1) Anonymous
2) Prohibited from accepting greens fees, or any other benefit

Neither will probably ever happen, but once you put these two rules in place, most of the abuses currently present in the ratings game disappear.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jeff, I agree about accepting fee green fees etc, but how does one gain access if one stay anonymous? Then the course is only seen by Members and guests of Members.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I truly grow weary of these conversations.  There seems to be widespread feelings that raters are on the panel just to get free golf and are just a bunch of know-nothing freeloaders.  Just like any group there is a percentage of people who take advantage of the process.  When GD finds out about it they throw the offenders off the panel.  When I became a rater fifteen years ago there was a major purge of folks who were offenders of GD policy for raters.  
I played half of the top 100 courses before I became a rater and have access to most of the courses I would ever want to play. The large number of raters that are on this web-site shows that many of us take architecture seriously.

[Michael Robin]

And Tommy, don't your unreimbursed travel expenses to your different assigned courses
significantly outweigh the cost of a comped green fee, suggesting that maybe it is about a pursuit of excellence in architecture that drives most panelists?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
Thank heavens, someone gets it!

[David_Madison]

The travel expenses often far outweight the value of the comped golf. To play two candidate courses with combined green fees of under $100 I drove over 200 miles each way and spent $100+ on a hotel room. And while the courses weren't bad, they weren't terribly special either.

The fellow rater who I traveled with and I got to spend some time with one of the course's owners, discussing ways to fix a potentially dangerous area on the course where three holes come together. If that results in something being done that improves that situation, it was worthwhile, and we wouldn't have been asked and had that access without being raters.

[wsmorrison]

What is the ratings process in the UK, Australia, etc.?  Maybe they do it differently and better.

Let's not lose sight that golf raters want to play golf and they will pay to play golf.  The sob stories of paying travel expenses doesn't cut it.  How many of you would hop on a plane right now, damn the expenses, to play Cypress Point or Pine Valley?  If you didn't want to do it for yourself, you wouldn't do it.  Is it an altruistic act?  For some, maybe.  Sorry to come across as a cynic.

Those that travel out of their way to play public courses or play second or third tier privates are doing it for what reason?  I'm sure these are the raters that do it for more noble reasons.  But maybe it is to stay on a panel so they can play privates they'd never see otherwise.  Who is being helped?  How many resort courses do you play anonymously at your expense?  How many are you comped on?

Of course some, hopefully many, do it for some greater good.  But I doubt it is a majority, except maybe on here.  But then again, I think the greater good is rather narrow in scope and limited to the magazines themselves, the raters themselves, up and coming courses that need members, resorts and public golf.

[Paul_Turner]

Wayne

Since there are no access difficulties for GB and Ireland, there aren't any official raters.

When the magazines put Top 100 lists together they usually use members of the various golf establishments+famous pros etc.  These guys have played a lot of courses but often miss the hidden gems.

[John Kavanaugh]

The fellow rater who I traveled with and I got to spend some time with one of the course's owners, discussing ways to fix a potentially dangerous area on the course where three holes come together. If that results in something being done that improves that situation, it was worthwhile, and we wouldn't have been asked and had that access without being raters.

So now you are steaing work from architects...I hope you have insurance if your consulting ideas don't work out.  I don't think you should be messing with safety or environmental issues.  If you see a potenial problem or asked to solve one simply tell the owner to hire a professional because you are not qualified to comment.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The fellow rater who I traveled with and I got to spend some time with one of the course's owners, discussing ways to fix a potentially dangerous area on the course where three holes come together. If that results in something being done that improves that situation, it was worthwhile, and we wouldn't have been asked and had that access without being raters.

So now you are steaing work from architects...I hope you have insurance if your consulting ideas don't work out.  I don't think you should be messing with safety or environmental issues.  If you see a potenial problem or asked to solve one simply tell the owner to hire a professional because you are not qualified to comment.

That is a little bit of reach there Jaka. I have voiced my opinions about the Major Deegan Expressway on more than a few occasions without repurcussions from the Asphault community here in NY, which by the way have a good chance of 'being connected".

From Shaq's website:

"Some architects are faintly contemptuous of suggestions made by "amateurs," but the wise architect is aware that he does not know it all and that really good ideas are often developed in these conferences. He never turns down a sensible suggestion simply because it has been made by someone else."  WILLIAM FLYNN

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