News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf for the People
« on: October 05, 2006, 10:33:43 AM »
Recently I've enjoyed watching my 18-month old son learn how to wack a plastic golf ball by imitating everyone from tour players in magazines and on tv to his ever-stiffening father.  (He's a lefty, a first for my family.)  Knowing that someday he'll want to play on a real course instead of my living room floor, I began to add up the cost, much like I have when considering the amount of money I need to add to his 529 to pay for college.  And then yesterday, I found out that my wife and I will have another boy in a few months.  All of these wonderful events, and a recent interview with John Updike in the WSJ about the state of golf, got me thinking about golf in the US vs. the rest of the world.  So I'd like to pose a few questions:  

Is it agreed that there is equal access to better courses in England, Ireland, and Scotland than there is in the US?

Why is there not an imperative to create municipal golf courses in the US on the level of quality with "top rated" public daily fee or private courses?

Should golf course architects even concern themselves with the public's appreciation of what it is they do for a living and, by remove, with what it means to make a choice to play on the types of courses praised on this site?  

Why should I not be able to take my son golfing for the same amount of money I spend on a game at Yankees Stadium (yes, even Yankee Stadium) or on a movie or for admission to the Museum of Natural History or the Met?  And what kind of sport does this create?

Why did golf not retain its democratic origins when it was transplanted to other parts of the world, esp. in the US, the land of supposed equal opportunity?  

What would it take to make municipal golf better?  What is better, exactly?


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2006, 11:35:41 AM »
James,
 Thought provoking questions but ones, while unintentially, are inherently biased.

It's this opinion that the quality of the public courses in the US are not horrible by any means. A game can be had and the sport can be played in all it's glory. There's even a great deal of quality GCA out there that won't cost as much as a semester of textbooks. However, It appears that the sensitivites of the golfer are such that eventually they demand the amenities and solitude of a Private course. I use to joke when a guy with rabbit ears couldn't handle the boisterous groups on adjacent holes at a muni that "public golf isn't for everyone".

The truth is, Golf isn't for everyone. No matter how much the 20/20 summit tries to market it that way.
Stay home America. Raise your kids to be decent, then play golf.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2006, 11:47:47 AM »
James,

If you can still practice as an MD we here in Southern Illinois towns of 5000 people or less will not only give you a membership into the private course of your choice, we will build and pay for you a home.  Come visit cause we need doctors not to mention the contributions your wife could also make as a teacher in our local public schools.

Golf is amazingly affordable for the educated.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 11:57:00 AM »
Having just returned from Bethpage in NY, I would state that for NY residents quality public golf exists at very reasonable rates. I'm sure there are many examples throughout this country. I have discovered that quality private golf exists in the smaller towns in upstate PA as well. I recently played a Tillinghast club in Wilkes-Barre where the membership fee and yearly dues were amazingly low as compared to Philadelphia and other major metropolitan areas. Seek and you will find.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 12:28:52 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 12:20:18 PM »

Why should I not be able to take my son golfing for the same amount of money I spend on a game at Yankees Stadium (yes, even Yankee Stadium) or on a movie or for admission to the Museum of Natural History or the Met?  And what kind of sport does this create?


You can golf in The Bronx for $38 and $46 for non-resident full price weekends. I would call Split Rock a Doak 5 and Pelham a 4. Not saying I want to play there on the weekends, but early and late in the day, it is a pretty nice place for me to catch 9 holes.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 12:26:47 PM »
Which is more expensive for you big city types...Deerfield or Leadbetter..
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 12:27:08 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 12:33:52 PM »

Why should I not be able to take my son golfing for the same amount of money I spend on a game at Yankees Stadium (yes, even Yankee Stadium) or on a movie or for admission to the Museum of Natural History or the Met?  And what kind of sport does this create?


You can golf in The Bronx for $38 and $46 for non-resident full price weekends. I would call Split Rock a Doak 5 and Pelham a 4. Not saying I want to play there on the weekends, but early and late in the day, it is a pretty nice place for me to catch 9 holes.


Mike has it right.  If you're in nearby Westchester County there are additional options.  A week ago on a slow Friday I plucked down $24 cash and played Sprain Lake.  Every time I go to Split Rock, Sprain Lake, Mohansic, Saxon Woods and others in the muni system it is most definitely Golf for the People.

After a regular dose of the conditions, its also a reason for joining a club!

Doug Ralston

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 04:45:29 PM »
JM;

Do not believe that public golf of quality cannot be had for reasonable prices. In Kentucky, there MAY be one public course over $50. Most are considerably less [I probably average $25-$30]. Yet that are many courses that GCA members would not be disappointed in, if they would just try them. Last week my friends from GKL and I met at 'Old Silo', a magnificent Graham Marsh course in East Central KY, and for $39 played in wind and weather a most challenging design. No? Look up the website. Cannot hardly believe how few people have found out about the quality of public golf here.

Yes, it is true that private courses are mostly well beyond the 'common purse', not to mention my sadly uncommon one. But who cares? While there are a lot of private courses I would love to play once or twice, there is NO course I want to play over and over, so that I would pay a huge fee to join. I like to play too many different ones.

When your kids get older, and are ready to play with you, encourage them to appreciate a variety. A lot of creative architects out them, perhaps some even on GCA  ;). And they all have much to offer.  Meanwhile, do not wish too hard for a son as a golf partner ....... they grow up, then you suddenly remember the sweet times of their youth. Enjoy them!!

Doug

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 05:30:21 PM »

James,

I take my 6-year old daughter to the local par-3, whose pro shop closes at 5 each day so we play for free.  A few holes and she's good.  I'm guessing she'd like August Natl. less. Parks are great, too.  You can conceive your own holes, which will stir your kids' imaginations and feed their interest in the game.  I know this from experience.

When it comes to access to the great Old World courses, there are fewer social restrictions for sure.  But those courses aren't cheap, and as such they are out of reach for a lot of English, Scottish and Irish golfers.  So in that sense it's not as egalitarian as one might think.  I play with a greater diversity of players over here than I did over there. I think we're better at that they are.

Golf is what you make of it.  Enjoy it for what it is.  I've never noticed a correlation between dollars spent and enjoyment.



THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 07:16:13 PM »
Land Value and Retail Volume.

Baseball Stadium: on minimal land with the ability to house 45,000 clients at a single game. Beyond that the stadium is home to an asset valued at upwards of $1 billion.

Golf Course: Spread out over vast amount of land with the ability to accommodate 45,000 in one year. Often amenitizing development valued at ????.

And to answer your point more directly: Too many in municipal government are short sighted when it comes to revenue generation... sell land off for development for short term gain rather than develop a business plan that would require cash outlay during hard times but become a steady revenue stream for the municipality municipality. Same old story. Some have gotten it right and operate a finacially solvent budget based largely on such an operation.  


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 07:18:58 PM »
James:

What it would take to "make municipal golf better" is for people to stop portraying golf as a rich man's sport.  Unfortunately, in America, this is unlikely.

I've traveled in Britain quite a bit in the past year, and though nearly all private golf clubs there do make some accommodations for visitor play, the rates are completely unreasonable compared to the Britain I remember from twenty (or even ten) years ago.  Visitor fees are now MUCH higher, because they are priced for Americans who have paid $500 or $1000 to get there ... and I suspect that club members in Britain play far less "visitor golf" than they did ten years ago as a result.

PS  Name three top-quality municipal courses in England and I will stand corrected.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2006, 10:32:40 PM »

Is it agreed that there is equal access to better courses in England, Ireland, and Scotland than there is in the US?

Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Spanish Bay, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Torrey Pines, Sandpiper, Bodega Bay and Wild Horse aren't substandard golf courses.


Why is there not an imperative to create municipal golf courses in the US on the level of quality with "top rated" public daily fee or private courses?

Do you think the courses I mentioned are "top rated" or inferior golf courses ?


Should golf course architects even concern themselves with the public's appreciation of what it is they do for a living and, by remove, with what it means to make a choice to play on the types of courses praised on this site?  

I"m not sure I understand the question.


Why should I not be able to take my son golfing for the same amount of money I spend on a game at Yankees Stadium (yes, even Yankee Stadium)

Let's compare the products.
Sitting in the upper deck in right or left field could be akin to playing an inferior golf course.  Sitting behind home plate could be akin to playing a great golf course.

In the new Yankee Stadium, the ticket price, per game, for the front row seats is $ 1,500 per seat.  And, they're no longer available, they've been sold out.

Even in the current stadium, seats 20 rows back go for $ 200 per seat.  Throw in parking at about $ 35, hot dogs at $ 8 a piece, beer at $ 8 a bottle, popcorn, peanuts and cotton candy at high prices and you'll find that golf isn't a bad bargain.


or on a movie or for admission to the Museum of Natural History or the Met?  

I haven't seen many 6-14 year olds at the MONH or The Met


And what kind of sport does this create?

Why did golf not retain its democratic origins when it was transplanted to other parts of the world, esp. in the US, the land of supposed equal opportunity?  

It has, access is unlimited, only the price gets changed based upon market demand.


What would it take to make municipal golf better?  

What's wrong with it now ?

Are Bethpage Black, Red or Green bad courses ?
And, they're at bargain prices.

What about Montauk Downs ?


What is better, exactly?

Doesn't better equate to more demand, which equates to higher prices since access is limited during daylight hours ?




John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 10:19:44 AM »


I haven't seen many 6-14 year olds at the MONH or The Met



Museum of Natural History
Address: 79th Street and Central Park West
Phone: 212-769-5100
Hours: Sun-Thur 10am-5:45pm
Fri & Sat 10am-8:45pm

This incredible institution brings all aspects of the natural sciences to life. Continuing attractions: Natural Science Center - offering an introduction to plants, animals, and rocks in New York City.
Admission $5 for adults and $2.50 for children.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 10:21:36 AM by John Kavanaugh »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 10:27:14 AM »
I putting together my response... ;)

JohnV

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 10:30:19 AM »

I haven't seen many 6-14 year olds at the MONH



Patrick, just curious, when was the last time you were at the MONH?  I've never been to it, but I was just wondering.  When I go to the Carnegie Museum of Natural History, it is packed with kids and is very inexpensive.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2006, 10:35:37 AM »
John,

I'm the same and take my 11 yr old to museums and the zoo all the time because it is free when ballgames and golf is not.  I bet Pat goes to those $1000 per plate fundraisers late at night I always see advertised.  Not many 6-14 yr olds at those things.

My son loves the George Caleb Bingham's at the St. Louis MOA..and the cats at the zoo..I'm always thankful of those big donors..

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 10:39:44 AM »
I think the point Pat was trying to make is understood though. You have curiously left out The MET in these shots at Pat. If he took out the MONH from his post would you have any argument at all with his position. It seems pretty consistent with the rest on this thread.

I too am very thankful for the donors that make all the museums and zoo's in the Philadelphia area so affordable. My children love them, in fact we're going to the Philadelphia Zoo this weekend.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 10:41:15 AM by JES II »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 10:43:59 AM »
James M -

You simply live in the wrong area! :)

There is a lot of solid, very inexpensive muni golf in western PA. It's not Oakmont, but what is?

If you care to dig through the archives, you will find a good bit of arguing on this particular issue, though most of it is political in nature.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil_the_Author

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 11:52:11 AM »
John,

You wrote, "Museum of Natural History
Address: 79th Street and Central Park West
Phone: 212-769-5100
Hours: Sun-Thur 10am-5:45pm
Fri & Sat 10am-8:45pm

This incredible institution brings all aspects of the natural sciences to life. Continuing attractions: Natural Science Center - offering an introduction to plants, animals, and rocks in New York City.
Admission $5 for adults and $2.50 for children."

You left out the most important price. What most people are unaware of is that the Museum of Natural History is open for free, by means of a grant, on Friday and Saturday evenings. This is to encourage parents to bring their children in. We did this for many, many years.

Pat (& others) there is no greater fan or supporter of bethpage than myself, but it's a BIG country out here. There has to be more good inexpensive municipal golf than the 5 courses in Farmingdale, New York, if you want to disprove James' claim.


John Kavanaugh

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2006, 11:55:22 AM »
What is the MET and what do they do..

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2006, 01:32:56 PM »
JakaB-

I don't want to speak for James or Patrick (actually, that's not true, i sometimes do wish to speak for Pat), but it's either the Metropolitan Opera, or the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2006, 01:38:00 PM »
Geoffrey Childs,

Your comments sound similar to feelings of one Cosmo Kramer. ;D

As for Indy, there are several public golf courses that are top quality and just a notch below the level of only a couple private clubs in the area and above many.  I think it has been said by Matt Ward or someone else that Indy has one of the best quality public to private ratios in the country.  We are quite lucky in that regard.

And none of those are the expensive resort courses like Pebble, Pinehurst, Bandon or courses of that nature that some people often throw into the public consumption conversation.  I'm sorry but high end resort courses with $200 plus green fees are not the same thing as public or municipal golf.  

Quality public courses are out there, you just might have to look for them.  


Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2006, 01:52:44 PM »
agree with all those here.  i'm from the midwest, and i marvel at the quality golf offered by westchester county, relative to its cost.  Westchester even built a new one an opened it a year or two ago, putting the lie to the statement that muni golf isn't working in NYC.

Bethpage--the quality there is amazing.  The blue and Red courses are better than some pvt courses in the met area, and anyone can walk up and play any time, just not on one of the better layouts.

If I took you to Columbus, Ohio,  Lansing Michigan, or any of a bunch of other places in the midwest the muni course quality would go down, but the availability would go up a lot.  in the towns i mention, you can show up after work without a tee time and play 18 in 4 hours.

pvt club golf may be better quality, but the avg. pvt club player is paying $300-500 per round (dues, carts, caddies, etc. divided by 20-30 rounds per year).  for $100-200, you can get a pvt club experience (as good as all but the top tier clubs) at a high end daily fee course.



JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2006, 06:48:07 PM »
Gentlemen, sorry it took me so long to respond:

Mike, Geoff, I have played the Westchester munis, yes, they are inexpensive and are very fine for a quick round.  And yes, they are also enough to induce one to join a private club, I agree with you there!  (Perhaps we can get together for a round one of these days.)  Similar point in fact, I am exercising my freedom of choice tomorrow and playing Casperkill, a RTJ design, for the heck of it.

JaKaB, I'll take it up with my wife, though she's on the tenure track and I gave up my pursuit of medicine long ago.  The Met, by the way, is the Metropolitan Museum of Art ... or it can be the Opera.  No kid I know, though, is too crazy about the opera, including this one. ;)

George, you have your own ideal course to take care of now, don't worry about muni golf in western PA, let alone New York.  One of these days, I'll finally make it to Pittsburgh and play Oakmont.  

Adam, I did not mean to suggest that munis are horrible.  Not at all, esp. where I've played them in and around NYC, CT, and PA.  I hope you'll see what I am getting at below.  

Doug, considering that the cost of living in KY or lower OH is quite different from NY, golf at those prices does not surprise me.  Consider yourself very lucky.  

Tom D., I agree that prices for golf in the UK have increased dramatically in the last decade or so -- a recent phenomenon.  Gary, ditto. They are not cheap by any means, esp. with the dollar where it is vs. the pound or Euro.   If you follow Jim Finegan around on his travels these days, you rack up quite a tab.   You will also note that a resident of Brancaster can play Royal West Norfolk for free, however.  Tom, I think I can probably come up with a few other examples, give me time.  

Patrick,  first, those courses that you list are in no way inferior.  In fact, the 15 on the 100 on Golf Digest's '06 Top 100 list that one can *actually* play are in no way inferior.  As Mr. Childs pointed out, though, most of them are in no way affordable for the Average Joe, either.  

As a side note, I do not agree with your price comparison with Yankee Stadium because  I've paid $40 bucks on numerous occasions to sit in mezzanine seats, with $16 for two beers and have as good of a time as if I sat along first or third base, which has cost me $80.  But the analogy btw. seat location and quality of course is stretching it methinks.  

My 18 month old son has been to the Natural History Museum three times, the Metropolitan Museum of Art twice -- though I admit this is odd but we couldn't find a babysitter for a pre-opening event. I was really talking about when he becomes an adolescent/teen golfer and can comparison shop with his friends on the weekend.  John made my point, though.

Bill, Gary, Steve, Scott, you mention Bethpage, and here is a bit of what I guess I am getting at, perhaps, is there should be more Bethpage State Parks in this country.    (Thank you, Phil, fittingly, for hitting one of my nails on its respective head.)  I don't think I'd be too far off by stating that Bethpage Black is the ONLY US municipal course that garners high architectural respect from the GCA discussants.  There are no other muni courses on any course raters' Top 100 lists that I am aware of.  I guess that's why you have to sleep in your car to get a tee time!  

Another point:  I can play all of the UK courses on the Golf Digest Top International Course list or on the Top 100 British course list or the courses from the Top 100 Courses of the World recently posted here by Sean Arble (I think it was Sean), even if I must pay out the nose in some cases to do so.  Still, I can play Royal County Down at twilight for $30, Machrihanish is still cheap, though not what it once was, Alwoodley, Woodhall Spa Hotchkins, and Dornoch are relatively cheap for their stature on the GCA scale, not to mention many of the top Welsh courses are very inexpensive.  

I have more, but I'll post and hear any responses.





 

 

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Golf for the People
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2006, 08:19:34 PM »
I play the Westchester muni's all the time and try to find the good in the layouts and look past the conditioning.  In some respects this site has helped me to pick out particular features and this had added to my enjoyment.

With that said, Split Rock, Mohansic, Saxon Woods, Ritcher Park, Neshanic Valley, Flanders Valley, Bethpage, Lido, The Knoll, Hominy Hill, Ridgefield and Casperkill are all municipal layouts in the NY area.  I would not mind a steady rotation of these courses for a season and feel lucky that they are available.  Some can be expensive unless you live in the town, but they all can be reasonable during the week or weekend afternoons.  Do they compete with NGLA, WF, and other masterpieces in the Met area, of course not, but I would argue that they are all fun and do have merits worth looking at.  

I guess I'm in a glass is 1/2 full mood.  

James, have fun at Casperkill.  It is a neat course in my opinion and has a bunch of fun holes.  The front 9 has an excellent mix and is pretty as well.  Holes 2,4,6,7 are particular favorites of mine.  Let me know what you think, and PM me if you want to get out for some "golf for the peeps" in the area.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back