[JESII]

Did anyone else notice how he handled this in the Saturday morning four-ball session?

Was that revealing about the overall spirit of the game these days?

[ed_getka]

What happened?

[Aaron Katz]

DELETED

[JESII]

Aaron,

Are you suggesting I delete this thread? If so, explain.

edited in:

Ed,

Henry makes a phenomenal eagle on 16 and birdie on 17 to bring his team (cink I believe) from 1 down to 1 up in a crucial match. It appeared all day like a 3-1 session in favor of Europe and now our team might escape even and still only two points down. A huge opportunity for momentum to swing to the US squad.

Hit's a good drive in the fairway about 5 inches right of a sprinkler head. With ball in hand being played, and six inches being the amount it can be moved he puts the ball on the sprinkler head and then takes the one club length drop from there and then lift/cleans/ places the ball again. Apparently the ground immediately around the sprinkler was a bit off and he wanted to get away from it.

I am not suggesting he cheated in any way I just would have been a hell of alot prouder if he hadn't done what he did. Ditto about captain Lehman for encouraging the process.

[rjsimper]

This is not an opinion one way or the other.

Basically, his ball came to rest right next to a sprinkler, but not on it.  The sprinkler was in a little depression in the fairway, giving him an uneven lie.

By rule, he could not take one-club relief from the sprinkler because it was not affecting stance/swing.

But, because they were playing the ball up, he was able to lift, clean, and place the ball directly on the sprinkler, which then allowed him to take the one-club relief from the sprinkler and drop the ball in a more level lie.

[David Stamm]

Thanks for the expaination Ryan. HMMMM, That sounds kind of fishy to me.

[Aaron Katz]

No, I wrote something that I deleted.  I wrote something and thought the better of it.  It was nothing about you or the thread.  My apologies for any confusion.

[Tom Huckaby]

Assuming Ryan's take is correct (I didn't see it) - which I have no reason to doubt...

JJ's actions were wholly within the rules of golf in force at the time.

They also seem to be against the spirit of the rules.  When one thinks of Davis Love in the 2004 Ryder Cup NOT taking an advantage he otherwise could have... and Darren Clarke chipping out in that tournament not as long ago when he could have taken a whack at the green.... well...

This makes me sad.

BUT... if we faulted every golfer who ever took advantage of a rules "loophole" like this, methinks we'd be finding fault every week.  This type of thing happens all the time in competitive golf - it's normal.

Which of course is what made the actions of DLIII and Clarke so cool....

TH

[JESII]

Huck,

Agree that it's normal, and less regrettably agree that it is a shame.

[ed_getka]

Thanks for the explanation. I missed that somehow. Using the rules in that way is a lack of sportsmanship IMO.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck,

Agree that it's normal, and less regrettably agree that it is a shame.

Very well said.
Of course we can look at it this way:  since there is absolutely no way to stop actions like this, it's silly for me to get "sad" when I see them... We should just expect this and think no more of it, and instead rather celebrate the actions of DLIII and Darren Clarke.

Which is pretty much what happens anyway, no?

TH

[Scott Coan]

Henry makes a phenomenal eagle on 16 and birdie on 17 to bring his team (cink I believe) from 1 down to 1 up in a crucial match. It appeared all day like a 3-1 session in favor of Europe and now our team might escape even and still only two points down. A huge opportunity for momentum to swing to the US squad.

Hit's a good drive in the fairway about 5 inches right of a sprinkler head. With ball in hand being played, and six inches being the amount it can be moved he puts the ball on the sprinkler head and then takes the one club length drop from there and then lift/cleans/ places the ball again. Apparently the ground immediately around the sprinkler was a bit off and he wanted to get away from it.

I am not suggesting he cheated in any way I just would have been a hell of alot prouder if he hadn't done what he did. Ditto about captain Lehman for encouraging the process.

I'm a big believer in KARMA on the golf course and especially in match play.  They went on to lose the hole and halve the match to Paul Casey's birdie...

[David Stamm]

Tom, when you mean taking advantage of the rules, does what happened to Tiger in Phoenix w/ the boulder being moved or this year at Firestone w/ the drop after hitting it on the roof qualify? I agree w/ you, what DL III and Clarke did was CLASS, maybe players think, if Tiger takes advanatge of the rules, why can't I? I know implying that Tiger is not acting in the spirt of the rules will get me roasted, but come on. If the #1 player doesn't set an example regardless of whether he was just abiding by the rules official decision, why should the others? There's their standards and your standards. Sometimes theirs are not good enough and you have to live up to a higher one, your own. Cheers to Clarke and others who do the right thing regardless if going the other way is within the rules.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

I love Tiger.  I am a huge Tiger fan.  I'm a SoCal boy born and raised in North Hollywood, and I first saw him play in LA City when he was 7.  I've been a fan ever since.  BUT....

I can't condone his actions in Phoenix.  I do wish he had a DLIII or Darren Clarke incident I could point to.  So in this manner, he is part of the norm... and that is a drag.  But here's hoping his chance will come...I have this weird feeling it will some day.  Given every shot he ever hits is seen and scrutinized to bejesus, he won't fail due to lack of visibility.

TH

ps - I am absolutely with Scott re karma on the golf course...

[rjsimper]

Since this is a rules thread, and I don't want to crowd the board with another one, allow me to pose this...

In a fourball match-

If a putt is conceded, is it REQUIRED that you pick up your ball?  Does it make a difference if the other three players have holed out or are yet to play putts?

I'll get to my question in a second...

[JESII]

david,

My vote for shot of the match goes to Paul Casey for that second right there. I did not see much of the matches other than that entire morning session on saturday so perhaps there were other momentum swinging situations, but to hit the second he did (hitting a soft cut to stay on the front of the green) and two putt was absolutely as good as golf can get. Absolutely awesome. Unfortunately he was on the other team. considering the run Henry was making Eagle - Birdie - putting for eagle, that birdie/par swing virtually ended the matches in my opinion.

I'd be curious if the euros felt that way, or if there were many other equally significant events throughout.

[Tim Pitner]

Hit's a good drive in the fairway about 5 inches right of a sprinkler head. With ball in hand being played, and six inches being the amount it can be moved he puts the ball on the sprinkler head and then takes the one club length drop from there and then lift/cleans/ places the ball again. Apparently the ground immediately around the sprinkler was a bit off and he wanted to get away from it.

I totally missed that incident--that's outrageous.  Did the announcers say anything about it?

[Scott Coan]

Henry's subconscious had to be screaming at him that he was a cheating SOB.  Not sure how he played his second shot as I did not see any of this action but he obviously did not make birdie.

Conversley, Casey apparently hits a marvelous second shot.  His subconscious is screaming, "while this pri*ck is cheating, I'm gonna float a big high fade and waft it down onto the green and beat these bastards - PLAYING CLEANLY !!!"  

Good on him!

[JohnV]

Now you know why most rules officials hate Lift, Clean and Cheat.

There are too many opportunities to push the rules.  I don't like a player using LC&C to take advantage of a rule that they wouldn't have gotten to use.  That, IMO, is going too far.

As for Tiger's incidents, the one in Phoenix was pushing the spirit of rules (pardon the pun), but it certainly wasn't a blatant attempt to gain an advantage that wasn't normally available.  His one at Firestone was totally alright under the rules of the competition.  There was nothing special about it as has been stated enough times here that it doesn't deserve repeating.  Anyone who hit the ball to the same place would have gotten the same ruling.

Ryan, to answer your question, Decision 2-4/6 covers it.  You can putt out after a concession as long as it doesn't help your partner (ie you are on the same line.)  If you did putt out when you were on the same line, he would be out of the hole and your score would count for the team.

[rjsimper]

Ryan, to answer your question, Decision 2-4/6 covers it.  You can putt out after a concession as long as it doesn't help your partner (ie you are on the same line.)  If you did putt out when you were on the same line, he would be out of the hole and your score would count for the team.

Thanks John, that covers the issue I was going about which I was to inquire.

[rjsimper]

Yep,

I figured it was somehow illegal (otherwise you'd see guys like JJ Henry doing it all match) but I had never seen or read the rule prohibiting it (and I've never played an official four-ball event)

Though not prohibited by the rules, do you folks feel similarly about people who watch the early morning telecast of the Masters or other tournament in order to get information about conditions or pin placements?

[JohnV]

Sean,

Print the following and give it to the "gentleman" in question:

2-4/6 Putting Out After Concession of Stroke

Rule 2-4 does not cover the question of whether a player may putt out after his next stroke has been conceded. A player incurs no penalty for holing out in such circumstances. However, if the act would be of assistance to a partner in a four-ball or best-ball match, the partner is, in equity (Rule 1-4), disqualified for the hole.

If by rabbit scrapes, you mean burrowing animal holes, casts or runways, that is the rule and sometimes we get lucky.  But remember that if it is clearly unreasonable for the player to play a shot because of something else (such as a tree), they shouldn't get relief.  I've had a guy whose ball was lodged between two roots try to tell me that he should get relief from the hole below it.  Sorry.

If you just mean areas that have been torn up by an animal but aren't related to a hole or a path to the hole (runway), then you must have a local rule that gives relief.  Unless they are really a severe problem around the course, I would not usually write a rule covering them if they are not in the fairway, but many courses and, in particular, many club professionals seem to mark a lot more ground under repair than we do.

[Guy Nicholson]

Seems to me that if Henry (a) was within the rules and (b) executing in sporting manner, there's little to get worked up about. Wasn't his choice to play ball in hand.

Examples of things that some would say violates the second tenet were the Hurst-Sorenstam thing at the Solheim Cup (when one team waited until after the infraction to point it out and force a replay) or any number of things done by Seve Ballesteros. That's gamesmanship - not against the rules, but not necessarily an admirable way to interact with an opponent.

[JohnV]

Though not prohibited by the rules, do you folks feel similarly about people who watch the early morning telecast of the Masters or other tournament in order to get information about conditions or pin placements?

That is one advantage that the later player has.  But, if it wasn't on TV, he could just walk around the course and watch also, or have his caddie do it.  The best argument for hole location (pin) sheets, is that they equalize things for the early player who might be starting play before all the holes have even been cut.

Frequently this is offset by other disadvantages that the later player has like potentially more wind, greens that are bumpier etc.  

This is one reason that most events give players a late and an early tee time the first two days.  After that, you earn the late tee time and any advantage they might get by watching the earlier players.

[TEPaul]

It occurs to me that playing "Winter Rules", "playing the ball Up", "preferred lies", "lift, clean and place" is something that isn't recognized in the R&A/USGA Rules of Golf themselves, although it is addressed in App. 1 (Local Rules) and left up to the "Committee". Stuff like this JJ Henry thing is probably just another good reason why it isn't addressed in the Rules proper and likely never will be. One of the two "Great Principles" of golf is "play the course as you find it".
 

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