Conflicting interests - Golf, Architecture and Environmental issues

[Ulrich Mayring]

Indian burial grounds is not an ecological argument. Undoubtedly there are many reasons why people would oppose a Golf course in their neighborhood. But I was interested in examples of ecological opposition to turning farmland into a Golf course. This means agriculturally used land, not wilderness with a farm in the middle.

Ulrich

[paul cowley]

Mike ....welcome to the Island!
Farm Neck is a good course but pales to the course that it replaced, but only on a personal basis....the old Island Club was were I learned the game...had my first real scores and beat my father, who was all the while teaching me how to play....Mink Meadows was where we played otherwise [and I'm not sure why we did, but it didn't matter and I like the 9].

....on an entirely different tack, Sea Island is similar.
 Upon arriving in the island area in 1976, my first source of revenue was collecting sand dollars at low tide, 2 pennies for small ones, and 4 pennies for bigger ones....I would also collect 'coon oyster' clusters and bring them home to eat ....free of course, as were the tough quahogs that I gathered from the marsh and had to bake to make edible.

...and all of this is where Sea Island's new Ocean Forest course sits today... .


...but Davis has just won on a course we designed and I am most pleased.

[Mike_Sweeney]

...but Davis has just won on a course we designed and I am most pleased.

Yes, I did see that between the Eagles game. That must be a first of some sort for a GCA poster and Feature Interviewee. Other than Nicklaus, has any other PGA pro won on a course he designed or re-designed?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Indian burial grounds is not an ecological argument. Undoubtedly there are many reasons why people would oppose a Golf course in their neighborhood.

But I was interested in examples of ecological opposition to turning farmland into a Golf course. This means agriculturally used land, not wilderness with a farm in the middle.

Ulrich,

I gave you an example, Friar's Head.
Evidently, you choose to ignore the facts.

[Craig Sweet]

"Ecology doesn't take priority over man or man's needs."

This is classic crap from Mucci....

Gee Patrick, what do you call the air we breath, the water we drink? Try living without them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Ecology doesn't take priority over man or man's needs."

This is classic crap from Mucci....

Gee Patrick, what do you call the air we breath, the water we drink?

Try living without them.

Craig,

Ecology is a branch of science concerned with the interrelationship of organisms and their environments.

It's not about breathing air or drinking water.

By your logic noone should build a golf course near air or water, perhaps the moon would be your ideal location for siting a golf course

[Jason Topp]

If anyone wants to put this debate in a broader context, I just read an interesting book titled Collapse.  (I cannot recall the author).  

The author reviews a couple dozen past and present day societies and argues that environmentally sustainable practices are critical long term to the economic and political well-being of a society.  For example, the author argues that the differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic are due primarily (although certainly not exclusively) to differences in environmental practices.  

I think golf course developers should be familiar with and probably embrace this analysis (even though the author apparently hates golf courses) because I would argue it makes golf courses more attractive as a land use than many other alternatives.  

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick, where do you get off questioning MY logic? Or should I say misinterperting MY logic?

For you to say "ecology does not take priority over man or man's needs" has to be the dumbest thing you have ever posted on this board.

The next time you are contemplating the "ecology" of the enviroment you live in take stock of your water and air "needs" and see where they rank on your list of "prioroties" based on the condition of your enviroment.

Taking YOUR logic to it's obvious conclusions, earth will be populated by NOTHING but golf courses and all life will be gone.

Keep building, heck it's the "right now" that matters, right?

How selfish can you be?

[Craig Sweet]

jason, the authors name is Jared Diamond...this is an excellent book and ironically the first chapter is near and dear to me as it chronicals what is happening in the Bitterroot valley...

Guys like Mucci are selfish and can not see beyond today. If he had been around 1000 years ago on Easter Island he would be advocating for cutting off all the trees.....I wonder how they felt when it became apparent they no longer had timber for repairing and making their boats? I bet the island felt very small.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Friar's Head? Are you joking?

I would be hard pressed to think of an ecologically more valuable area than the rolling dunesland, massive bluffs and forests found on that site. There are - what? - five holes on farmland and you are telling us the environmentalists went ballistic over them??

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Friar's Head? Are you joking?

NO

I would be hard pressed to think of an ecologically more valuable area than the rolling dunesland, massive bluffs and forests found on that site. There are - what? - five holes on farmland and you are telling us the environmentalists went ballistic over them??

I think you'll find at least 9 holes on the farmland, and yes, the environmentalists went ballistic.

It's a matter of record, including the lawsuits filed by the environmentalists.  You can look them up if you're not familiar with the circumstances.

How could you NOT be aware of them ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Patrick,

I think the problem with Friars Head was more a problem from the dunes area rather than the farmland:

http://pbisotopes.ess.sunysb.edu/reports/dunes/

At basically the same time, Laurel Links which was 100% potato farm got their permitting. David Saland the developer had to do some horse trading with the environmental groups, and give up some houses for open space, but that would probably be standard procedure. However, Friars Head and Laurel Links are in separate towns, so standard procedure is a relative term.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, where do you get off questioning MY logic? Or should I say misinterperting MY logic?

Actually, logic has to exist in order to be questioned or interpreted, and in your case, "logic", is nonexistant.

For you to say "ecology does not take priority over man or man's needs" has to be the dumbest thing you have ever posted on this board.

Then let me repeat it.
MAN comes first.

The next time you are contemplating the "ecology" of the enviroment you live in take stock of your water and air "needs" and see where they rank on your list of "prioroties" based on the condition of your enviroment.

Please, stop with the ridiculous melodramatic statements.

According to you, golf courses are now going to taint the air and water we breath and drink.  That's absurd.

Taking YOUR logic to it's obvious conclusions, earth will be populated by NOTHING but golf courses and all life will be gone.

That's as absurd as the rest of your other statements..

Keep building, heck it's the "right now" that matters, right?


Where should the emerging demographic live ?
Should we not build homes for them ?  Schools ? Hospitals ?

Should we cease procreating ?

What matters is providing for the future generations and that includes recreational facilities that do less damage than farms that occupy the same land.

If you want present and future generations to live in log cabins and caves, that's your perogative, as absurd as it may be.

How selfish can you be ?

Selfish is stifling man's growth, limiting his right to housing, schools, hospitals and recreational facilities.

It's an unreasonable view with respect to providing for future generations, and building golf courses on existing farms helps the environment more than the farm did.  That's something that you just can't come to grips with.

If 20,000 people moved to your area of Montana, are they not entitled to provide the best possible quality of life for their families ?

In yesterday's NYT's there was an interesting article about someone who wants to put their land to a certain use.

The long time residents of the remote area had no objection to it, it was the "johnny come latelies", the newer residents who didn't want anyone else to enjoy their new neighborhood.

Does that sound familiar

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I believe the same person who attempted to thwart Atlantic was involved in stifling Friar's Head.

As you know, no dunes are on the Atlantic property.

The issue at Friar's Head extended well beyond the dunes.

Question:

Upon inspection of over 300 acres, how do the environmentalists know exactly where the carcass of a yellow spotted eastern salamander resides ?

Answer:  

Because that's where they left it.

You know the drill.
Evidently Ulrich and Craig don't.

[Craig Sweet]

patrick you said...

"According to you, golf courses are now going to taint the air and water we breath and drink.  That's absurd."

There isn't a golf course superintendent alive that will support your crack "pot science".....

[Patrick_Mucci]

patrick you said...

"According to you, golf courses are now going to taint the air and water we breath and drink.  That's absurd."

There isn't a golf course superintendent alive that will support your crack "pot science".....

Prove me wrong.

Show me how golf courses taint the air and water worse than farms.

You're in a dream world, or denial.

[Craig Sweet]

Oh, so now it's "worse than farms"?  What's next, worse than cemetaries?

Patrick, there are ALL KINDS of farms with degree's of enviromental impact ranging from negligable, to very, vey bad. The same is true for golf courses.

[Ryan Farrow]

Patrick, don’t you find it funny that almost all of us are in complete agreement with how bogus and irresponsible your statements are? Then you defend yourself by trying to humiliate all of us and call our ideologies stupid.

And you say things like this:

"Ecology doesn't take priority over man or man's needs."

I would expect a statement like this from the Bush administration, not from educated folk.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, don’t you find it funny that almost all of us are in complete agreement with how bogus and irresponsible your statements are?

Could you define, "All of us" ?
Surely, the sum total of your constituency isn't Craig Sweet and yourself.
Could you also cite and offer refutation of the bogus or irresponsible statements you claim I made ?

Then you defend yourself by trying to humiliate all of us and call our ideologies stupid.

Again, could you define "all of us" ?

Could you also cite those who defined their "ideologies" ?

And you say things like this:

"Ecology doesn't take priority over man or man's needs."

That's the first accurate quote you made, and I stand by it.

I would expect a statement like this from the Bush administration, not from educated folk.  

Bush          Yale
Cheney       U of Wyoming
Rumsfeld     Princeton
Rice           cum laude & Phi Beta Kappa - U of Denver
                 Masters - U of Notre Dame
                 PhD  U of Denver

Where did you get your degree ?

Craig Sweet,

Would you identify, with specifics, how golf courses have harmed the air, and the results of that harm ?

Then, would you cite, with specifics, how golf courses have harmed the drinking water, and the results of that harm, that can be unequivically traced to a sole source, a golf course ?

Thanks.

[Craig Sweet]

Patrick, you name the course ,and I will tell you unequivically that it has released toxins into the air and into the ground water.

This FACT is not even open for debate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, you name the course ,and I will tell you unequivically that it has released toxins into the air and into the ground water.

This FACT is not even open for debate.

Let's use Green Brook CC in NJ.

Tell us, specifically, how any released substance has harmed the air and/or ground water, and the impact its had on humans ?

Remember, you want to deal in facts, not rhetoric.

[paul cowley]

Craig and Ryan....its more about educating yourselves about the specifics of our business...and less about soundbites.

Its much more complicated/convoluted than you would know....and I bleed a good shade of green [being Irish  ].

And Craig....you will not find a course to date that has affected the ground water table beyond an acceptable level, even if you [or they that have ] monitor courses that are up to 100 years old, or golf courses that discharge toxins in the air beyond a level that is acceptable for your average subdivision [most golf courses are at lower levels].....believe me, many groups and many millions have been spent trying to prove just that, and with no success......maybe you could supply some different data?

Unfortunately its the spread of this kind of mis information that has hurt the game.

[Craig Sweet]

Paul...I am aware of many of the studies and research done....Mucci started with a claim that there are no enviromental problems associated with golf courses....IN OTHER WORDS no impacts....

You know, and I know, that isn't true...there ARE consequences to every application....the changing additude toward pesticide use....do more by using less...on golf courses in the EU, and more and more in the USA, is NOT because there are zero impacts

[Ryan Farrow]

Paul, I am not that familiar with the affects of golf courses on ground water and I would imagine, in most instances, the chemicals and toxins will be filtered out before it reaches the water table. First hand at Oakmont I would see streams behind the course that would stain the river rocks all sorts of interesting colors and release some just as impressive smells after the rain. This stuff eventually travels a few hundred feet into the Allegheny River and is home to all kinds of wildlife from hawks to deer to turkey. My worry is in the immediate vicinity of the golf course and all the wildlife that it supports.

Pat, your responses are borderline childish and deserves little response. Again you pick apart peoples responses and try and put them down. If you are inferring that ASU is a joke compared to the Yale’s, Princeton’s, and Notre Dames you are right my friend, but I will at least earn my degree unlike some of the clowns in your list.

I think it was W who once said that, "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." Maybe you should take his advice.

[Patrick_Mucci]

First hand at Oakmont I would see streams behind the course that would stain the river rocks all sorts of interesting colors and release some just as impressive smells after the rain.

What streams ?
Exactly what holes are they located next to or behind ?
I don't recall any streams directly adjacent to the golf course.
Are you sure that the contamination you reference didn't come from another source ?

This stuff eventually travels a few hundred feet into the Allegheny River and is home to all kinds of wildlife from hawks to deer to turkey.

Hawks, deer and turkey live in the Allegheny River ?

I thought that most of the areas bordering Oakmont were roads like Route 909, the PA Turnpike and residential areas with the Allegheny to the north.  Has that changed ?

My worry is in the immediate vicinity of the golf course and all the wildlife that it supports.

The immediate vicinity seems well developed except for some land between the golf course and the Allegheny, unless you don't consider the Pennsylvania Turnpike, Rt 909 and homes as forms of development.

Pat, your responses are borderline childish and deserves little response. Again you pick apart peoples responses and try and put them down.

Outlandish and/or absurd responses should be exposed for what they are.

If you are inferring that ASU is a joke compared to the Yale’s, Princeton’s, and Notre Dames you are right my friend,

I never implied that, you infered that.

When you demeaned the individuals who hold the highest offices in the land by implying that they're not educated, I felt compelled to enlighten you on the issue of their educational backrounds.

Try thinking prior to typing.

but I will at least earn my degree unlike some of the clowns in your list.

Could you identify the clowns ?

And, could you describe how any of the them failed to EARN their degrees ?

In your response, please, try thinking before typing.