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Jim Sweeney

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Notes from the Mid-Am
« on: September 10, 2006, 12:28:00 AM »
It's late and I'll write more tommorrow about the courses but in an interesting coincidence I was the rules official with the group including GCA's own JAmie Slonis. Jamie had a tough day (79) but has a good swing and he clearly has game and could still make match play. The courses at Forest Highlands are very mushy due to quite a bit of rain. Most players are allowing 10-15% extra carry for the 7,000 foot elevation.

Forest Highlands is in Flagstaff, AZ. The Canyon course is a Weiskopf/Morish design and the Meadows course is solo Weiskopf. See details on the Mid-Am web site- access via USGA.org.

More tomorrow.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Garland Bayley

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2006, 12:49:45 AM »
I believe (without taking the time to look it up) that the canyon course is one of Tom D's 31 flavors in at least one edition of the confidential guide.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Renli

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 09:49:46 PM »
I drove up yesterday and really enjoyed the day, some randon comments:

* Fairways were very soft due to the rains, despite the altitude of 6800 and a one club differnce the course seemed to play long.  Canyon is over 7300.
* The featured pairing of Kevin Marsh (defending champ), Buddy Marruci and Trip Knehe was entertaining.  The first time for me seeing Trip play live.  He really hits the ball solid, almost that sense of it makes a different sound coming off the club.
* I got to catch the finish of a fine round by Jamie Slonis, even at the Canyon.  I believe he just missed match play due his slow start on Saturday.
* The par 5 5th at the Canyon course is a 515 yard dogleg right.  Small pond short left of the green.  I believe anything pin high and two feet or more left of the pin was in the water.  I competitor in Jamie's group putted into the water from what looked to be inside 20 feet.  Another hit the pin on his third and trickled into the water.
* 6 of the 11 AZ players made it to match play.

Sean Leary

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2006, 09:57:14 PM »
Tom,

A friend of mine played in it and had a real tough time with the distance control on his irons with the altitude. His clubs got lost by the airlines for two days of practice rounds so he didn't have a good feel for the distance until the second day. Said it played REALLY long with the wet fairways.

Loved the courses though, particularly the Canyon. Have you played it? Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2006, 09:57:41 PM by Sean Leary »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2006, 10:59:54 PM »
One of our stalwart players at Engineers ran into a buzz saw in the first round of match play and is unfortunately heading home but kudos and great work to Jonathan Jame for being the only New Yorker to make match play!!


Tom Renli

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2006, 11:07:32 PM »
Hey Sean,
I have played up there.  I really enjoyed it, especially the Canyon Course.  Similar Wieskopf philosophy, lots of risk reward, maybe not driveable but a short par 4 or two.  Definetly not desert golf, pure mountain with a stream on a number of holes.  The club has a nice low key, understated feel.  Best (maybe only) non desert courses in the state for me.

I had heard that with the rain, practice rounds were limited.   Given the altitude, changes in elevation and breezes, club selection is tricky, can not image new clubs on top of it.  It did not look like any major upsets in the first round of match play.

They held the state match play a couple years ago and as I recall few if any birdies were made in the final match.

JSlonis

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 01:59:46 PM »
Unfortunately I'm back home in NJ after a great trip to Flagstaff.  The Forest Highlands courses were wonderful, especially the Canyon Course.

It was great to meet Jim Sweeney, but too bad I had such a lousy first round on the Meadows course.  A combination of first round nerves, poor putting and a lack of timing lead to a frustrating first day.  My second round on the Canyon course was a lot more enjoyable.  I was able to fire an even par 71, but came up two shots short of making match play.

Thanks to Tom Renli for coming out to watch and say hello.  It's always a pleasure to meet fellow GCA'ers.

The Canyon course is very interesting for many reasons.  The first being the routing.  The course has 6 par 3's, 5 par 5's, and 7 par 4's.  From the 4th hole to the 13th hole, you play a par 3 every other hole.  The course is routed over some widely changing topography.  Thankfully for the players & caddies, the USGA supplied shuttle service from green to tee a few places on the back nine.  There are some stretches that would just be unwalkable between holes.  The Canyon offers a great variety of strategic choices to the golfer, with many risk reward options.  The greens are the real challenge and the biggest defense of the course.  They are very difficult with some interesting contouring and falloffs toward the green edges.  Adding some very tough hole locations by the USGA to the speed and contour of the greens made the Canyon Course quite a challenge.  I thought the one hole location on the par 5, 5th hole that Tom mentioned above was a bit borderline.  The hole was cut just on the very edge of a fallaway toward the front left of the green.  For the tourney, it appeared as if the USGA has shaved the bank bewtween the green and the small pond guarding the green.  I don't think it is always like that.  From the type of grass, it appeared to me that that area usually has some higher cut grass.  Any ball about 1-2 feet left of that hole would catch the falloff and run into the water.  I'm positive that more than one player putted the ball into the water during the qualifying rounds.

Prior to this tournament, I had never played in such high altitiude.  At 7000 ft, the ball just travels forever.  Depending on the shot, you had to factor between 10-15% less yardage to account for the difference.  This held true for the most part, so I really didn't make any mistakes with club selection.

Maybe James Sweeney will chime in later, but you guys would definitely be calling for rollbacks of epic proportions if everybody was hitting the ball like one of my playing partners.  He hit it SOOOO FAR it was scary.  I'm not short by any means, maybe 280-290, occasionally 300+ with the driver at sea level.  This guy hit it 40-50 yards by me easily with the driver.  He said his club head speed was around 125-130 during tournaments.  There were several 600+ yard par 5's at Forest Highlands, and he reached nearly all of them with a 3-5 iron.

Here's a couple of pics from the Canyon Course:

The picturesque par 4, 9th hole, 466 yds.  It's one of the most beautiful holes you'll see anywhere.  The tree you see in the fairway really isn't in play for the guys playing in the Mid-Am.  The tee shot to the fairway is quite a drop, then the 2nd is played over the edge of the pond guarding the green.  Due to the altitude and the downhill, I hit a 2 iron from the tee over the tree to land between the fairway bunkers and then had a 6 iron approach.


Approach to the par 4, 16th hole, 411 yds


Approach to the par 5, 18th hole, 600 yds.


The par 3, 4th hole, 169 yds slightly uphill.
 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 03:04:48 PM by JSlonis »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2006, 02:53:16 PM »
Jamie
I played there a few years ago in the Pacific Coast Am..and found the Canyon course to be a very good test with some very challenging par 3's..and I mean VERY....great pictures, look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks.

JSlonis

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2006, 03:02:24 PM »
Jamie
I played there a few years ago in the Pacific Coast Am..and found the Canyon course to be a very good test with some very challenging par 3's..and I mean VERY....great pictures, look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks.

Michael,

I look forward to seeing you as well.  I've heard that the course is in outstanding condition.  We'll have some fun!

You are defintely right about the par 3's, they are quite tough.  I found the 10th hole to be very challenging.  The narrow back portion of that green is hard to get to.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 03:13:19 PM by JSlonis »

George Pazin

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2006, 03:21:11 PM »
I've only played a handful of times at altitude, so it's hard for me to really appreciate the differences.

Is it as simple as just playing everything X% less? Do elevation changes at altitude have a greater or lesser effect? Do the courses tend to be more firm?

P.S. Are there chipoat Stupid Trees all over the course? :)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2006, 03:22:18 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JSlonis

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Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2006, 03:57:34 PM »
George,

I found the 10% rule to be pretty standard for a large majority of shots.  However, I think with a 210 yard shot you had to allow for a bit more increase than you would for a 120 yard shot.  The longer clubs increased distance wise a bit more than the shorter wedge approaches.  I found that uphill shots

Here were some of my standard distances and clubs throughout the week:

2 iron, 260-245
4 iron, 235
5 iron, 220
6 iron, 200
7 iron, 185
8 iron, 170
9 iron, 155
PW,    140
Gap 52*, 125
Sand 56*, 115
Lob 60*, 100

TEPaul

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2006, 07:35:31 PM »
Jamie:

Congratulations anyway on making the Mid-Am and going out there. Sorry about the bad first round but it looks like you had a good round on the harder of the two.

Speaking of the clubhead speed of that animal you played with who said his clubhead speed was around 125-130mph---that sure is high but for a reference that ultra long "Long John" Hurley from Nebraska who had the highest ball speed ever clocked by the USGA (that includes everyone in US Opens and US Amateurs) which was a ball speed of 195 mph. That's about 10mph higher than Tiger and it calculated from the USGA to be 133-134mph clubhead speed.

Coming off the tee where they clocked him he said: "I didn't hit that one very well."    ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2006, 10:07:39 PM »
JSlonis,

There's nothing like a USGA event, it's special.

While you didn't make the round of 64, you qualified locally, which is a very difficult task, traveled to the event, played practice rounds and two competition rounds.

I'm sure you met some nice people who you'll remain friendly with for years to come.

It's a great experience and I'm sure you'll be back.

Jim Nugent

Re:Notes from the Mid-Am
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2006, 11:56:00 PM »
Jamie, how far do you normally hit those clubs, when you are not playing at altitude?

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