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Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (Photos)
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2006, 11:33:01 AM »
Jason

Thanks for the great photos.

Mike

That was some really thoughtful commentary on Engineers and I agree with all of it.

Today, Engineers has reawakened and it is a course that GCA aficionados should see, study and most importantly enjoy PLAYING.

Ditto!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (with a couuple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2006, 12:00:38 PM »
Some shots of 2 or 20, Strong's 14th hole.  I believe all of the work here was done by Gil.



View from right side of back tee, about 120 yards to the center.  



view from the left side, there are some ideas being worked out to relocated the cartpath so it's not visable from the tee



a look back toward the tee reveals the carry required



Not what we'd call a large putting surface, I've wondered if the front left portion of fringe should be cut as green and I'm not sure it would play any different as most everything releases of that area forward and toward the center and it's not pinable anyway:



short left leaves a runnaway bunker shot from this pot bunker:



The front left to back right tilt is visable here:
 


Over the back leaves little hope: (the elegant and rolling down hill 15th in the background)




Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (Photos)
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2006, 12:02:04 PM »
Jason

Time to compile your contribution to this thread as "My Home Course". JWD!

In process, what's JWD?

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2006, 12:20:48 PM »
gotcha, I'll need some technical advice offline in a few days.  

HamiltonBHearst

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2006, 08:47:14 PM »


Thank you for all the info Mr. Blasberg.  It would be nice if Tripp Davis was not heckled off the site and we could ask a few questions. Of course it is understandable because he is not MFA.

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (Photos)
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2006, 11:25:36 PM »
Mike
How is this different? Most will tell you a Rossified course has also captured/recaptured a historic look, feel and playability. Prudent sensativity? Do you think the new bunkers are a good representation of Strong's original design? I would think not recontouring over half the greens would have been the most sensative option.


Tom,

I'm going to have to defer to your greater historical knowledge of Engineers as regards the bunkering, although I'm sort of a bunker afficianado myself and thought that most of the bunkers were pretty well done and certainly not to be trifled with.  Could you tell me a little more about where you feel they are significantly different in look from what Strong designed?

On the issue of the greens, I'm surprised to hear that almost half of them have been touched, because most of the areas where work was done is still visible due to a slight discoloration of the grasses in those areas, and as I mentioned, almost all of it was around the edges, with very little done to the internals.   In most of those cases, it seemed to me that 6 or 8 feet of greenspace were flattened slightly, mostly on some very severe slopes.   Given that the work also included recapturing a lot of lost green space, I am sure they play much better than they did prior to Davis's work, although obviously it's difficult to compare them to what they might have been back in 1920 or so.  

Still, in their present state, they are fantastic.  I can't imagine anyone going there and not being completely blown away by their boldness and severity, and if they have lost something from their original state, I can't believe it's very much given modern green agronomy, though they are kept at reasonable speeds.

I'm always interested in learning more, however, so I'd be curious how a Doak or Hanse would have handled it.   I know Tom weighed in here with concern about changing the slopes, but he has also felt it prudent to do so at places like SFGC, so I'd be curious how he would have approached it.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2006, 11:40:32 PM »
OT---I recently recieved an e-mail from Tripp Davis.  He has been very, very busy of late and also been playing some very good golf in big time amateur tournaments.  He is currently playing in the mid-Am at Forest Highlands.  He shot +5 today,which beats at least 2/3 of the field.  I am pretty cerain that he will post at some point in the future when things slow down somewhat.  Incidentally, the greens got up to around 11 today and were really cool.  At this speed with firmness, the original 14th plays like a true Redan--my 3/4 PW hit very crisp ran out 35ft, with a good 10-15 ft of left to right break.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2006, 07:06:09 AM »
Jason,

Thanks for the great photos.

Jason and Mike,

What kind of grass comprises the greens at Engineers ?

Grain that heavily influences putts in the Met area is uncommon ?

What would cause a golf course in the Met area to have such pronounced grain ?

T_MacWood

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2006, 10:09:44 AM »
Mike
Based on what he began with at Engineers I think it would pretty difficult for Davis or any golf architect not to produce extremely interesting greens. I don't think it would be possible.

The very strong feelings Gil Hanse and Tom Doak had toward Strong's original work at Engineers should tell you something. IMO its a shame Tripp Davis did not have similar feelings.

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2006, 10:20:57 AM »
Pat:

I'm not sure what Mike was referring to but the greens are mostly bent and poe, I believe.  The poe has not been budding or anything so I've not noticed any grain issues.  The new 6th green has got some grow in issues but is coming along, that is likely mostly bent grass but I don't see grain being an issue there.  There are, in a handful of spots, some zyosia grass rough around the greens (don't ask me why) so there could be some creep in spots but I've never noticed grain and never thought about grain until Mike mentioned it.

RMD:

What's your take on grain issues?

« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 10:22:02 AM by Jason Blasberg »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2006, 10:33:51 AM »
Mike
Based on what he began with at Engineers I think it would pretty difficult for Davis or any golf architect not to produce extremely interesting greens. I don't think it would be possible.

The very strong feelings Gil Hanse and Tom Doak had toward Strong's original work at Engineers should tell you something. IMO its a shame Tripp Davis did not have similar feelings.

Tom

I'm not sure what you mean by it being difficult not to produce extremely interesting greens.  Trip could have certainly done MUCH more to alter their character had he or the membership wanted to do so.  They chose a very sympathetic alteration and should be commended rather then given a back handed slap like that.

Once again, I'm among Gil and Tom's greatest fans but you quote them when it suits your agenda but fail to remember that they too alter classic greens.

Hanse - Apawamis
Doak- San Francisco GOlf Club, Pasatiempo, (and interpretations of all 18 at Yeamans Hall).

Let's not put them in your lilly white restoration purity society.

T_MacWood

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2006, 11:03:19 AM »
Geoffrey
I think I've been pretty consistant in regards to my view of the one green recontoured on those courses you mentioned. Comparing the overall restoration efforts at those courses (compared to Engineers) is a real stretch.

I'm a little surprised you would throw the career restoration efforts of Doak and Hanse under the bus to justify Davis's work. Soon you'll be singing the praises of Rees, Faz and Rulewich.

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2006, 11:04:16 AM »
The very strong feelings Gil Hanse and Tom Doak had toward Strong's original work at Engineers should tell you something. IMO its a shame Tripp Davis did not have similar feelings.

The dead horse rides afterall . . . let's beat it some more then.

How may times are you going to state the same point on GCA?  

Mr. MacWood there's an old saying about giving someone enough rope and they might just end up hanging themselves, we'll I believe you've finally done it (not without forewarning by your's truly I'll add)!
   
For the record Gil altered greens 2 and 8 a lot, but the changes didn't work.  Gil made changes to the left side of 2, which included pushing into the hillside a good bit and a mound that Gil put in the middle of 8 green didn't play as intended and too many balls got hung on the top shelf leaving front pin placements unplayable.  Much of what Tripp did on 2 and 8 greens was undoing work to the greens that just didn't work right.

Tom, I hope everyone on this Board finally realizes that: 1) it's entirely misleading for you to continue to make these statements about what Tripp did or didn't do and about what T.Doak or G.Hanse thought or didn't think b/c unless you're involved on the ground with these projects it's entirely inappropriate to comment; 2) these gcas, T.Doak, Gil Hanse, Tripp Davis, etc., ALL put the results of their hard labor and creativity out there on the ground and they ALL deserve respect for their decisions as to what's done and what's not done on any particular project; and 3) that Tom MacWood flies blind from an ivory tower of theory in Ohio while taking pop shots at what was done at Engineers (even though he recognizes its merit) which, at the end of the day is again a world class golf course that will be appreciated once again for it's genius routing and greens, and Tom MacWood will have not played one of the greatest set of 18 greens in the World!

Jason

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2006, 11:19:13 AM »
I'm a little surprised you would throw the career restoration efforts of Doak and Hanse under the bus to justify Davis's work. Soon you'll be singing the praises of Rees, Faz and Rulewich.

I can hear the snap of the rope as Mr. MacWood's credibility hangs from the gallows.

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2006, 01:26:54 PM »
OT---I recently recieved an e-mail from Tripp Davis.  He has been very, very busy of late and also been playing some very good golf in big time amateur tournaments.  He is currently playing in the mid-Am at Forest Highlands.  He shot +5 today,which beats at least 2/3 of the field.  I am pretty cerain that he will post at some point in the future when things slow down somewhat.  Incidentally, the greens got up to around 11 today and were really cool.  At this speed with firmness, the original 14th plays like a true Redan--my 3/4 PW hit very crisp ran out 35ft, with a good 10-15 ft of left to right break.

Nader my man, Nader!  RMD, we should measure the entire hole, tee to green and size of green and slope, etc.,

We should then measure a well respected Redan or Nader and see if the measurements are proportionate given the respective size of the holes.  '

BTW, did you see that J.J. shot 77 yesterday, he's still in the hunt with a solid second day!

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2006, 01:37:05 PM »
Fellows,

I'm hoping that we can keep the tone about the work and about the course.

I know where Tom MacWood is coming from and I fully respect that he's willing to stand up for "purity" in restoration.   I know in the case of Merion for me, and Yale for Geoffrey, and Riviera for both of us, or Garden City for Patrick, or Bel_Air for Tommy Nac and many, many examples I can think of none of us would have wanted to see anything altered in a way we thought was inconsistent with the greatness of designs of those historically significant courses.

Even on courses where I feel no great sentimental affinity, such as Quaker Ridge, I recall being very dubious and flustered when I heard that Tom Fazio was being brought in to soften the tremendous first green.   At the time, about five years ago, I felt very much that Fazio must be in some camp of self-promoting architects who don't give a crap about classic design and were only interested in being paid prostitutes for advancing their own careers.  

Then, over time, I would see other architects who I believed had their heart in the right place also take on work where "adjustments" were going to be made to classic course greens to accommodate modern green speeds and in the interest of more hole locations.  

I frankly can't think of a one of them among the MFA's of this board who haven't done this, and the list includes Prairie Dunes, Southern Hills, Pasatiempo, SFGC, Apawamis, Tavistock, and probably many more I am not fully aware of.

This tells me something, although I'm not sure I like the answer and the truth.   But, if we're going to get anywhere I think we have to face some realities.

Yesterday I played a brand-new modern course that had greens running about 12 on the stimpmeter and they were literally agronomic perfection.   They were among the truest greens I ever saw, and the unfortunate thing is that they had so little slope and contour that even putts of 40 feet or more had no more break than a foot or so.   Yet, if I hit a putt correctly, it was going in the hole, no question about it.  They were so true as to be almost synthetic.

The bottom line is that this type of green is the expectation among the majority of golfers, even among some pretty educated ones.   They want the nicest new cultivars, cut short as possible, and with speeds that allow them to sink putts.   They do not like to three putt, conversely, so anything with significant contour will be accused of "goofy golf".

Of course, I don't agree, but that's what we're facing.

That's what every well-intentioned member of any club is facing in trying to win this argument, and it's what every architect who signs on to do "restoration" work at a classic course is faced with.  

In the case of Engineers, and some of the membership pressures they were facing I think they are fortunate that they were able to get through this with a course that still has greens that cause shock and awe.  I think that they've taken a stance that while it might not give us purists everything we want, still gives us 85% of what might be perfect in an ideal world.  

And, I still think there are architects who fall into the camp of wanting to leave their mark willy-nilly to advance their own careers, and those who are very reticent to alter decades of history for their own purposes, but I've also seen the former do some good work under proper restraints and oversight, and I've seen the latter make compromises under the rationale that someone else would be less sensitive.

Based on what I've seen, I certainly wouldn't lump Tripp Davis in the former camp.


Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2006, 01:58:18 PM »
Mike:

The tone for one point of this thread that needs to be crystal clear is that Tom MacWood shoots from the hip and has made snide and condescending comments about Tripp's work there for years, literally, years, yet I know he's not seen the work himself and he doesn't even know what Gil did there.  Meanwhile, he's running his mouth about Gil's thoughts and intentions and wishing that Tripp shared them.  

Tom MacWood doesn't get it, he never will, and I'm not going to remain silent while in the name of "purity" he bad mouths what is a tremendously successful restoration project because one of his MFA didn't do it.

I asked diplomatically when I started this thread that we discuss what's on the ground, not the would of's should of's or could of's.  Yet, Tom MacWood couldn't restrain himself and continued his unrelenting and unimformed assault.  

Based upon information that I recently learned concerning how much was altered on greens 2 and 8 before Tripp set foot on the property, MacWood is exposed for what he is, a misinformed blow hard.

Sorry but I call them like I see them.

Jason

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2006, 03:57:05 PM »
Jason,

Isn't the larger question here that we should be discussing or debating simply about the best way to restore or preserve what we all agree are generally much more interesting and creative greens built during the Golden Age of design given modern agronomy, maintenance practices, and modern expectations?

I think that's a huge issue and I do understand where Tom is coming from philosophically, because when I read the original debate on here some years back I had the same gut reaction when I heard the greens were going to be softened.  Frankly, I was dead set against it, purely on principile.

However, I can't deny the fact that it's also happening on a lot of other Golden Age courses, and done by architects who we all know and greatly respect, so it's a reality we should all accept, and understand that there are some pretty strong forces supporting the idea, and not all of them are mindless or ill-advised.

That's why I hope that Tom MacWood will come and play Engineers, and I'd like to hear his honest opinion of the work.  

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2006, 04:18:31 PM »
Mike:

You expect far too much of Mr. MacWood, he's made up his mind years ago before he saw anything that was done and with that closed minded dogged attitude I doubt he'd ever see anything at ECC with bias.

I personally no longer have any interest in his opinion.

Jason  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 04:21:34 PM by Jason Blasberg »

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2006, 04:32:05 PM »
Jason,

Isn't the larger question here that we should be discussing or debating simply about the best way to restore or preserve what we all agree are generally much more interesting and creative greens built during the Golden Age of design given modern agronomy, maintenance practices, and modern expectations?


Not on this thread . . . I did not post unpublished photos of Engineers to once again beat this dead horse.  

I started this thread so that people could see what they've not seen before because it's so unique and so worthy of attention.  

Why is it that this Board cannot discuss what's on the ground today at ECC without discussing what was on the ground in the distant past and what may or may not be the best way to preserve, restore, etc.?

Historic preservation is another issue for another thread and while it may very well involve discussion of Engineers and perhaps lots of second guessing I certainly won't participate b/c I think it's a bunch of bologna.  It's guys sitting around discussing the fate of courses at which they pay no dues and I've not the inclination nor the patience to tolerate such endeavors.


Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2006, 06:25:25 PM »
I'm deferring to Mike on this one b/c I've not noticed any grain at ECC, maybe it's a definitional thing or something.  

Jason Blasberg

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2006, 06:33:20 PM »
The one thing the Met area greens is poor shape do suffer from is thatch, but that's certianly not an issue at ECC.  

I've found most all of ECC's greens to be very well maintained all year and I believe there's a strong and healthy root system.  The only issues have been on parts of 6 green and the back portion of 16, both new grown in areas that are having some growing pains but are coming along.

I think what Mike may be referring to as grain is the effect on break that green orientations have in relationship to the lay of the land and overall green site.

1 green is a fine example when you are putting from middle to back it looks up hill but in fact the green site is downhill and although the green has slope in it, it's rather quick as opposed to slow and up hill.

I've found it very hard to properly gauge speed this year.  ECC has lots of deceptive greens were the putts look either up hill or down hill from both sides of the hole.  

Mike, maybe we need a soil sample?   ;) ;) ;)  
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 06:34:22 PM by Jason Blasberg »

Mike_Cirba

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2006, 07:05:45 PM »
Jason,

I sincerely apologize for taking this thread in an unintended direction.  I was simply trying to state that based on my experience there recently, I felt that a lot of the concerns debated here previously have thankfully been unrealized, the improvements I cited are very real, and that Engineers and particularly the greens remain masterful and uniquely creative.

It's sometimes difficult to discuss what's on the ground today outside of the context of the work that was recently done, but I did think it was important to point out my positive impressions of that work.

Still, it seemed in doing so I merely picked at old scabs and I am sorry to have contributed to reopening those wounds, and sorrier still that I brought up the subject on a thread where you sought to highlight the wonderful attributes of the golf course.

Mike


Patrick_Mucci

Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2006, 07:21:10 PM »

The one thing the Met area greens is poor shape do suffer from is thatch, but that's certianly not an issue at ECC.  

And that doesn't influence or account for grain.


I've found most all of ECC's greens to be very well maintained all year and I believe there's a strong and healthy root system.  The only issues have been on parts of 6 green and the back portion of 16, both new grown in areas that are having some growing pains but are coming along.

I think what Mike may be referring to as grain is the effect on break that green orientations have in relationship to the lay of the land and overall green site.

That's not grain.


1 green is a fine example when you are putting from middle to back it looks up hill but in fact the green site is downhill and although the green has slope in it, it's rather quick as opposed to slow and up hill.

That's not grain either


I've found it very hard to properly gauge speed this year.  ECC has lots of deceptive greens were the putts look either up hill or down hill from both sides of the hole.  

Mike, maybe we need a soil sample?   ;) ;) ;)

That won't support the claim of pronounced grain on bent and/or poa greens.
 

Old Bermuda greens had grain, but, the newer strains are almost grain free, especially when cut to lower heights.

Perhaps Mike can provide an explanation of how bent and/or poa greens in metro NY have pronounced grain and what Engineers has done to minimize its effect over the years.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2006, 07:23:43 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The Old Gal Stood Strong! (now with a couple 2 or 20 Photos)
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2006, 08:12:05 PM »
Every green has some grain, but today it is severely minimalized on most courses.  At Engineers this is the case.  I've found grain to be of almost no factor.  For some reason, at Meadowbrook and Glen Oaks there are grain factors in reading break even though they do not appear to be grainey.  The tricky factor at Engineers is the subtle internal sloping that plays off of the severe green slopes.  Duane's 3rd green is brilliant because there are several areas where the green changes orientation--I've had quite a bit of fun using the electronic level on this green.  This may be the hardest green to read at Engineers and the electronic level demonstrates why.  

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