[Tim Liddy]

Congratualtions JES11 - Outstanding!!

[JESII]

Jim,
  Thanks for the feedback.

   Out of curiosity do you play casual rounds the same way as competitive rounds? In the sense of what you notice architecturally.

Ed,

Good question,

I'd say no, but that is not to say I completely tune into the surrounding features regardless of their direct influence on my game.

As you can probably read from many of my posts, I look at golf course architecture in how it effects a player when they are analyzing or playing particular shots. I do not see golf courses as static, permanent pieces of art, but rather interactive fields of play that do different things to different people and mean different things to different people.

I have played enough golf with players of all abilities and from age 11 to about 24 I made every dollar I ever earned by caddying. I do think I have the ability to understand a good deal of the visual presentation and playability effects of a golf course on a wide range of playing abilities but I do not get too wrapped up in that stuff when I am on the course. On here, most of what I try to do in regards to assessing a golf course is ask questions that may or may not provoke a different point of view from the person I am discussing it with. I don't really like calling a course good or bad because I think there is probably such a wide spectrum of view points about each one and being asked to prove it would be too subjective.

In short, I'm never going to try and tell you, or anyone, what to think about a course but I'm going to ask for reasoning when I am told what to think about it. I think that type of discussion pushes alot of the GCA afficianado crap aside and gives me more of an idea of what to expect and look for, as well as understanding how others SEE what's in front of them.

Tim,

Thank you very much.

[ed_getka]

Jim,
   I appreciate your reasoned approach to discussing golf course architecture. How aware are golfers in general of architectural features based on your caddying experiences?
   Also, when you are competing do you focus primarily on how the architecture will effect the shot you are visualizing, or are you just as focused on how the architecture will effect your potential misses?

[George Pazin]

Any 20 handicappers out there that have played Applebrook? We could pick a hole and test Jason B.'s theory. Jim vs. the 20-handicap.

I know you're kidding, Ed, but it's quite obvious from his posts that Jim sees more than the vast majority of golfers, scratch, 20 handicapper, or otherwise.

Thanks for the insights into Applebrook, Jim. How did you play #3? Go for it? How about the rest of the field?

The thing that impressed me most about Applebrook was the almost complete lack of framing of the greens. It seems like a course that many golfers would find a bit awkward on first play (and to me, that's a good thing!).

[ed_getka]

George,
   What are the short game demands like at Applebrook? What do you consider the best aspect of Applebrook?

[JESII]

Thanks for the insights into Applebrook, Jim. How did you play #3? Go for it? How about the rest of the field?

The thing that impressed me most about Applebrook was the almost complete lack of framing of the greens. It seems like a course that many golfers would find a bit awkward on first play (and to me, that's a good thing!).

George,

Laid up the first day because of uncertainty about the actual carry distance to about the front apron. I laid up aggressively though over the pot bunker out there and a bit left of it and wedged it to about 6 feet and made it. After that I realized length was not a problem getting to the green with a driver and did that the second day with one of my best drives. Hit it on the green about 30 feet away and two-putted. My read was that every player that felt they could reach the green tried it with a couple players posting 2's. The others that I played with laid up well left and wedged on. While playing #6 I saw a couple players lay up (on #3) closer to online with the hole. I cannot imagine they were happy with that as they had absolutely no chance to see the flag and were only 70 or 80 yards away.

Agree 100% about the framing and the awkward feeling it creates. See my post on Mike Sweeney's "PGA Tour hiring Gil Hanse" thread. While noting Applebrook as my only Gil Hanse experience, I thought if that type of presentation is typical, the Tour guys would not necessarily enjoy it. I used the word confusion. He really does set up a great deal of visual uncertainty and I agree that this is a very good thing.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Would you consider Gil's abillity to create that visual uncertainty an art?

[JESII]

Whether or not it's an art, I really do not know, but I can tell you this;he used a masters touch at Applebrook.

What is really amazing about Applebrook is that on 35 full shots you have your heart in your throat on about 20 of them. You are asked to make several really tough decisions, and once you do and you get the ball in the air you are left praying for the best.


How exactly would one describe art in this context?

[TEPaul]

Sullivan, I've just been hit by a request that I provide the photo on here with some kind of electronic autograph from you on it. Look, Pal, maybe I have a few tournament responsibilities this year or so but is this really one of them?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Do you think you'd be saying the exact same things you have about Applebrook if you hadn't just won a good state tourney there?

One time I was asking M. McDermott what he thought about golf architecture and if he had any particular favorite course.

He told me he just loved Lancaster CC architecturally and when I asked him if he could tell me why he said because for starters he won the Pennsylvania Amateur there.

Dumb me for even asking!  

[Adam Clayman]

How exactly would one describe art in this context?

Jes- I learned along time ago, not put pre-conceived parameters on what constitutes art. I can tell you that as I read your descriptions of the deceptions, I thought immediately of the good Doctor's background in camoflauge. Now, To hear about those 20 shots of yours, and the affect the gca had on your minds eye, I would call that a form of emotion inducing art.

[Jim Nugent]

Here is a link to the course, with a few photos and a scorecard.  Be sure to click on each picture: the full-size photos show way more than the photo previews do:

http://www.applebrookgolfclub.com/course.shtml

[JESII]

Sullivan, I've just been hit by a request that I provide the photo on here with some kind of electronic autograph from you on it. Look, Pal, maybe I have a few tournament responsibilities this year or so but is this really one of them?

"Responsibilities", such as.....posing for pictures with all these great looking guys that win the tournaments your organization puts on.....or letting as many players as are willing to suck up in hopes of a favorable ruling at some point down the road, when they don't even realize that you only go on the course in the morning to do your putting testing....or is it the wine tasting made available by each host club?

By the way, about that autographed photo, the price has gone way up so tell them to send their best offer in cash and we'll see.  

[JESII]

And another by the way, Michael may well be dead on about golf course analysis.

[PAW13]

Sully

Congrats on your win, I had to leave after you made the turn and thought it was going to be very tough for you to catch Paul with the way he was playing.

What did you make 4 or 5 birdies on the back side?  Great playing!  Of course I had you winning the Mid-Am last year in your first event back as a amateur.  So I was only one year off not bad.

Looking forward to seeing you at the Crump.  I like your chances there as well.

[TEPaul]

Sully, if you win the Crump Cup too, I'm personally going to either suspend your amateur status for a few month or just redefine your status into a new term that will be hereinafter known as a "Temporary Pramateur".  

[TEPaul]

Hey, I kinda like that new designation or term.

Would it offend your sensibilities, Sully, if golf from now on designated you reinstated amateurs such as Schlachter, Slonis, you, et al as "Pramateurs"?

Come on, you pramateurs secretly know you're too damn good for the rest of us lunks known as amateurs.

I vote for the redesignation of all reinstated amateurs as "pramateurs".

Wait, that's not all. I also vote that all "pramateurs" for a period of at least ten years following their amateur status reinstatment be required under a new "condition of competition" to be handicapped by requiring them to carry little teeny-weeny tube bags with no caddy as you did in winning that Pa Mid-Am.

What do you think of that suggestion? Pretty clever, huh? And you will also have the gratification of knowing you were the first to create a new trend in golf, or at least a new term or designation.  

I'm calling PV right now to tell them that you should not be allowed to have a caddy down there in the Crump Cup and you should be required to carry that teeny-weeny little tube bag yourself in the Crump Cup.

If you feel like paying yourself about $80-90 for carrying your own bag down there, hey, I have no problem with that.

[Adam Clayman]

As long as he doesn't pay himself more than $750 in a year.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Kidding aside on the pramateur thing and to shift this thread again a little, would you mind telling us if you think the fact that you played a few years of professional tournament golf gave you some things that you drew on in that Mid-am win and particularly on the second day playing head to head with Schlachter?

I'm thinking of stuff like various ramifications of course management techniques and such, like what was going on in your mind and your shot choices and stragegies once you hit the back nine and on into the back nine?

I mean that whole thing just turned completely on #13 and #14. I was on #13 and 14 most of the day and you may've been the only other one to biridie that hole (that pin was incredibly hard to putt to). And I can't imagine what Schlacter was thinking on #14. He was lined right up at that quarry and that's where he hit it. He couldn't have been thinking about clearing it as he's not long enough (maybe less than six guys actually cleared that thing on both days.

So what did your experiences on the higher level of pro tournament golf teach you about strategy, scoring, or even architecture (if anything)?

[JESII]

You know, I had not yet realized how much credit you should get for that turn of events last week.

Do you remember at Moselem Springs during the PA Am I saw you on the 8th tee during the second round and told you I was 2 under par? I immediately went bogey-double and when I saw you next tried to lay the blame on you. Well, I'm a big believer in giving credit if you are going to give blame so thank you for waiting until that 13th tee to show up because I clearly needed you to put the WHAMMY on someone else right about then. The guy had made 7 birdies with 6 of them combining to be about 15 feet in length so clearly he had his game under control.

Other than gaining the knowledge of properly using a destructive tool such as your whammy abilities I'd say that turn around was just one of those wierd things you see in golf a whole lot more than other sports. Paul is a tremendous player that I would really expect to make some waves at the up coming Senior Amateur. I've known him for a long time and he was a perfect gentleman all day which is commendable considering the circumstances.

[LBaker]

Jr.

Congrats.  See you around HVCC.  
What is you best round on the B/C?

[JESII]

Lindsay,

I was curious if that was you. Thanks for the congrats.

B/C?  I know I had a 15 footer for 31 on the C a couple of years ago but three putted. I have played that configuration so infrequently (probably less than 20 times ever), but I think I did break par once from the back tees. I'm going with 69.

Things look awesome out there. I was chipping around C9 green today at lunch and the ball is already bouncing really well. How's the rest of the course?

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