[Tom_Doak]

... or a U.S. Amateur Doctor?

Because if you are contesting an event at match play, you don't need one.  When you think about it in a head-to-head context, any course is fine for match play, and it doesn't matter much if any particular hole is twenty yards longer or shorter.

In other words, all these "championship remodelings" occur EXCLUSIVELY because of the winning score total.

[PThomas]

Tom - I think it sucks that they play the Ryder Cup at such courses as The BElfry and K CLub

I'd MUCH rather see match play at great courses..I think it would enhance the event

[Bob_Huntley]

Paul,

Merriam defines Professional thus;

 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs,(a professional golfer)

The British PGA look upon this tournament as their Holy Grail and woebetide any purist among their members who would suggest that they remove their lipstick and rouge and return the game to its roots.

It is all about the money....and don't you forget it.

Bob

[Glenn Spencer]

The last three US Amateurs have been 'doctored' to say the least. Maybe, it was because of the impending Opens at those courses, but they were messed with. LaCosta is the one that should have been 'doctored' somehow the most exciting event of the year was always turned into a snoozefest, I blame the course.

[PThomas]

Paul,

Merriam defines Professional thus;

 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs,(a professional golfer)

The British PGA look upon this tournament as their Holy Grail and woebetide any purist among their members who would suggest that they remove their lipstick and rouge and return the game to its roots.

It is all about the money....and don't you forget it.

Bob

unfortunately you are absolutely correct Bob

it just is so wrong....perhaps the game's greatest event played multiple times at ....The Belfry?!?!? ...that course doesn't even get close to the top tier of courses, much less be in the top tier

the almighty dollar rules again, unfortunately

just imagine how great it would be to see them playing at Ballybunion, or Royal COunty Down, etc., etc., etc...........

[Jordan Wall]

Because if you are contesting an event at match play, you don't need one.  When you think about it in a head-to-head context, any course is fine for match play, and it doesn't matter much if any particular hole is twenty yards longer or shorter.

Technically any course could be OK for match play.

But, is'nt the whole point of match play not to bring different strategies into play then that of stroke play?
In this case shouldn't courses be played, and designed differently for match play.

A match play course should have more risk reward holes then a regular course made for stroke play.
It should have weirder greens, crazier pin positions, more driveable holes, more shortish par-5's, etc.

I think if there was a RC doctor it would make the RC more interesting...

[Kevin_Reilly]

The US Am does have a stroke play component (36 hole qualifying rounds), hence there has been some "doctoring" going on.  Witness the modest hole lengthening at Olympic for next year's event.

[Nyk Pike]

Aren't most US Am sites doctored in preperation for future US Opens? I know that Oakmont and Merion had work done for the Am that was really prep for the US open. Doesn't the Ryder Cup captain "doctor" the course before the match? Woosie talks of moving bunkers and adding trees (ugh) to the K Club in preperation of the Ryder Cup in the latest Golf Magazine. It seems that every course hosting a "major" gets tweaked.

[Lloyd_Cole]

It might be noted, at this juncture, that most 'Golden Age' courses, if they were designed for anything, it was matchplay. Strokeplay didn't become the dominant format until?? When was it?? Could there be a correlation between the ascent of strokeplay and the descent of design aesthetics??

[John Keenan]

Regarding Mr Huntley comment that it is all about the money....and don't you forget it. I suggest you read the September issue of Golf Digest article entitled Money Talks.

The K Club owner Sir Smurfit points out in an article that the Ryder Cup was all about the money. This appeared in a Golf Digest Ireland last November and is noted in the GD article.

I would edit the comment to note BIG money.

[ForkaB]

To answer the original question, there is no "Doctor" because there is no illness!  Come on, guys--try to name an uninteresting Ryder Cup.  You could play it on a potato field (e.g. the Belfry, PGA National, etc.) and it would be riveting.

Come to think of it, great architecture is really only revealed when one has a card and pencil in ones hand..........

[John Kavanaugh]

Money plays a huge role in the everyday golf of everyday people.

[BCrosby]

Tom D is right.

Corporations sometimes hire CFO's who know how to "manage" earnings.

Likewise, the USGA hires architects for their ability to "manage" winning scores.

Design talent - traditionally understood - has almost nothing to do with the choice.

Bob

[Greg Holland]

In the current Golf Digest, Jackie Burke talks about the impact money has had on the Ryder Cup (and opined it was one of the reasons the US was crushed last time).  He said the PGA made $80 million off the 2004 Ryder Cup, but spent $60 million of it on the event.  Its an interesting read.

[RJ_Daley]

Bob Crosby, I like that "manage" usage.  I was thinking "massage" applies to both financials designed to suppress losses and hide expeditures and perks as does doctoring championship venues to suppress scoring and hide quirky or interesting architecture, as well.

The goniff's approach to GCA and CFO's, indeed.

[John Keenan]

To extend the doctor analogy. is their role not to manage the score but rather  to cure it?

[john_stiles]

Bob,

What about East Lake & Ryder Cup 1963 ?  Seem to recall some early doctors were called in for work at East Lake.  As early as 1963,  US courses were doctored for Ryder Cup.

Can anyone speak as to changes at the Belfry (1989, 1993, 1997, 2002 ) ?   Cannot imagine that they just mowed the grass and teed it up.

Valhalla is presently undergoing revisions by Nicklaus to host 2008 Ryder Cup.  I will let 'those in the know' speak as to the extend of the revisions.

Gleneagles Centennial is being re-worked for '14 Ryder Cup.

There isn't the two or three favored doctors as for US Open at US venues,  but the courses on each side of the pond have been doctored for the Ryder Cup even though it is match play.

[John Kavanaugh]

It doesn't surprise me that you guys would ignore Rees in his recent interview but he said he just did a little tweaking to Hazeltine.

[john_stiles]

From Celtic Manor website,  and it is implied (not stated) in my opinion, that the following course work is planned for the Cup.

"  What changes are planned for the course and other parts of the resort?     Holes 5-12 remain, 7 new holes are being built and holes 3 & 13 are being modified. A new clubhouse will also be developed. The new holes will possibly be completed by Spring 2006. "

Looks like some major reworking at that parkland venue.

[john_stiles]

How about a modern, complete redo for a Ryder Cup ?

From George Bahto, The Evangelist of Golf,  

"  In 1977 Jack Nicklaus was brought in to strengthen the #3 course in anticipation of the Ryder Cup Matches. An entirely new course, longer and less forgiving emerged - sadly eliminating Raynor's original work.  The new Greenbriar impressed the PGA however, who selected it to host the Ryder Cup matches in 1979. "

How about them apples for a match play event ?   The doctor couldn't or didn't save the patient in this case.

[Greg Tallman]

How about a modern, complete redo for a Ryder Cup ?

From George Bahto, The Evangelist of Golf,  

"  In 1977 Jack Nicklaus was brought in to strengthen the #3 course in anticipation of the Ryder Cup Matches. An entirely new course, longer and less forgiving emerged - sadly eliminating Raynor's original work.  The new Greenbriar impressed the PGA however, who selected it to host the Ryder Cup matches in 1979. "

How about them apples for a match play event ?   The doctor couldn't or didn't save the patient in this case.

And the result was not unlike many of the current redos... not the greatest. Some fun holes on the course but overall not inspiring.

[BCrosby]

John Stiles -

George Cobb redid East Lake before the '63 Ryder Cup.

Architects that are brought in to set up major medal venues aren't brought in to "improve" the course. Their job is to manage a winning score. And if they don't - if scores go too low - they take their Open MD shingle away. The quality of the architecture they leave behind is largely irrelevant.

It takes a special talent to change a course solely to make certain that the best golfers in the world score within a narrow range around par.

But the set of skills necessary to do that overlaps very little with the set of skills necessary to be a great architect.

Bob

[Wayne_Kozun]

Aren't most US Am sites doctored in preperation for future US Opens? I know that Oakmont and Merion had work done for the Am that was really prep for the US open.

While I am not doubting that you are accurate re:  Merion - isn't it a little early to do doctoring for a tournament that is almost a decade in the future, at least at the time that work was done in prep for the 2005 Am?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom D is right.

Corporations sometimes hire CFO's who know how to "manage" earnings.

Likewise, the USGA hires architects for their ability to "manage" winning scores.

Design talent - traditionally understood - has almost nothing to do with the choice.

Bob,

The USGA doesn't hire architects to prepare golf courses.

The host club is responsible for hiring an architect if work is deemed necessary.


Tom Doak,

You're right, match play could be conducted on any course.

What many forget is that the PGA was a match play event.

I think TV more than anything else was responsible for its conversion to medal play.

I also think that the Ryder Cup was a friendly, almost forgotten tournament until a few years ago.  Perhaps incidents such as those that occured at TCC together with media hype have elevated its appeal/significance in the golf world.

I for one would vote for venues such as Pacific Dunes and Sebonack due to the strong influence exerted by the wind.

They seem to be ideal golf courses for match play, at the professional and amateur level, but, that's just my opinion.
[/color]

[Tony_Muldoon]

Come to think of it, great architecture is really only revealed when one has a card and pencil in ones hand..........

I can't believe you lot are giving Rihc a pass on this little gem of rubbish.  Wake up out there!

Ciao

Sean

He say irony
I am prepared to pass
but not on haiku

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()