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Geoffrey_Walsh

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Montauk Downs Changes
« on: July 25, 2006, 02:20:13 PM »
The thread on Ferry Point caused me to think about the work that was supposed to be done on Montauk Downs by Rees Jones.  When I was out there during the '04 Open the head pro said the master plan had been completed.

Here is an article from 2005 that gives a background / overview of the project:

http://www.hamptons.com/hamptons_article_adventure_745.htm

Any idea what the current status of the project is?  I would assume that the NY State Parks department would want to complete it long before they turn their attention to the Open returning to Bethpage in '09.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:23:03 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Matt_Ward

Re:Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2006, 08:37:26 PM »
Geoffrey:

There have been an assortment of improvements at Montauk Downs but the same situation remains with the greens -- they need to be truly cut so that one doesn't need to make  shoulder turn to get the ball to the hole.

The overall turf quality is much better but it would be really helpful if a few more fairway bunkers were eliminated for the weaker player and re-positioned given the added distances from today's clubs and balls.

Montauk Downs is indeed a superb layout but there's still work to be done in order to fine tune what is there.

P.S. I played the course right before the US Open at Winged Foot.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2022, 05:52:50 PM »
I did a search and was surprised that there are not great threads on Montauk Downs. Long ago, I had a summer share house with friends, and Montauk was my first "home course" on Long Island. I get out to Montauk to surf with my son once a year, but I just never had time to squeeze in golf. It was a fun trip back in time to see a course that has clearly improved, but I can't say exactly how.


I was able to play over the holidays and we caught a warm-ish day with my son. If there was one hole that was cool to see, it was #15, which now has the "random bunkering" that we often cherish on this site. Was it new from my last play? I think so, but not sure:




The 7th hole is the classic RTJ carry over or around the water Par 5. What can I say, it is a very fun hole with lots of options:



I really like all the Par 3's:



The narrower holes were shorter, and strategic. Here is the 6th:



I could not find the Super on any website, but he/they are doing a fabulous job. This was the last week in December:








Obviously it is a tough neighborhood to shine, but it was awesome. Love Montauk, Ditch Plains Beach, and the fishing too...


Tough drive in the summer, but I will be back.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 05:55:20 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2022, 05:56:19 PM »
The old Merion pro, Bill Kittleman, played the pre-Jones version of Montauk Downs and thought it was special.  I've never seen any good photos of that version, though.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2022, 06:08:55 PM »
The old Merion pro, Bill Kittleman


With risk of being tossed by the new GCA Code of Conduct Police for golf infractions 40 years  ago, Bill Kittleman tossed me off The East on Caddy Monday for not being a legit Caddy!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Phil Carlucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2022, 06:18:43 PM »
Wow, a reminder from long ago that Matt Ward never failed to reference "shoulder turn" putts whenever Montauk Downs was mentioned.

Montauk deserves much more discussion, but it's in such a remote location it might as well be on the moon for most Long Islanders -- unless you're out there for a couple of days or a weekend.  Anytime I've played there it's been during trips with the wife in off-peak season, when tee times are plentiful.  The summer rounds there must be brutal.

#7 is the eye candy hole but to me the memorable ones are the par-3 12th and the little false-front par-3 #2 with 360* views from atop the property.  There's also a great collection of photos, articles and old diagrams on the clubhouse walls.
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2022, 06:29:38 PM »
Phil,


That Par 3 above is #12, and here is #2:


"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2022, 07:02:27 PM »
 8)


Tom ,   what a great name Bill Kittleman. Cool dude perfectly crusty!




Don't think anyone had more love for bunkers than that man!

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2022, 10:07:39 PM »
Phil,


That Par 3 above is #12, and here is #2:





Mike, I have been meaning to shoot you a note to tell you I hoped you and yours had a great Holidays, and then i saw this thread.   I don't post on here nearly like I used to, but you drew me out.   I loved looking at these pictures of Montauk.  I am proud to say as an interloper to the NE I have only played 15 courses on Long Island (something I hope to rectify in the coming years as every time I am there I discover so many great gems) but Montauk is one of the one I have played.  It has been 17 years, but seeing those pictures makes me long for a return visit.


Again I hope you and yours are well.  As well as the rest of the GCA gang!
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2022, 09:38:36 AM »
Considering the neighborhood it is in the out-of-state green fee of $86 is a bargain. The area is a great place to be, especially in late September and early October.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Gannon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2022, 08:19:29 PM »
Thanks Mike for bringing up Montauk Downs!  I live (mostly, lately) in East Hampton, and it's been my local "home away from home" course for about 7 years.  I've seen conditions steadily get better and better, and some of the best offseason greens I've putted on.  In fact, I believe they slow way down in peak summer months due how quickly things grows out there, and an explosion in play!  I try to avoid it July and August frankly, but finally they have an online tee time system with Covid induced time intervals, it's been very reasonable.  Love the pairings out there, in the offseason Maidstone members come out to play with East Hampton/Montauk coaches, teachers, firemen, etc.  Great mix.


The history fascinates me.  Tied to Carl Fischer's vision of a Miami Beach of the NE, the original course was a HC Tippet design.  From what I have seen, it seemed low lying with a smaller footprint.  Fun stories about early aviators landing prop planes near the first tee.  And the place had a Stanford White clubhouse.  The resort, Montauk Manor, the course all went bankrupt due to the 1929 crash.  I suppose it limped along until 1966, when it reopened as Montauk Golf and Tennis Club.  That club had RTJ Sr design a brand new, private course.  Again, that went bankrupt, and the State of NY bought it in 1978 and reopened as a public.  Late 90's saw Rees Jones add bunker, and lengthen the course with a masterplan.  It's fun to tee off 11th and 12th tee boxes and see the Montauk Manor in the distance, walk down the 4th fairway and see all the way out to Camp Hero, and although the perimeter is lined with housing from the 1980's, the routing takes you almost like mirror figure 8's in rolling hills.   


The course is very challenging.  Wind comes from a prevailing direction, but often it does reverse directions and it changes how you plays several holes. 


Some observations:
-a majority of the greens are elevated, there are not many run up shots available.
-tons of bunkers fronting greens requiring aerial attacks, in addition to the elevated greens.  Others have water to carry, 7, 13, 16.
-I believe the soil is mostly clay from ice age deposits, so despite it's being surrounded by ocean and bay, it is not a links.
-although not in the line of play, there is a ton of tree and brush overgrowth.  Eliminating some of that would open up views and bring wind back in in a big way.  It is wonderful, rolling, undulating terrain that would be incredible if you could see across the field of play and take in the topography more. 
-Much like Bethpage, they seem to cut fairways a uniform width.  The course is not narrow in the way Bethpage is; however, there are some spots like the landing area of 5, 7, 13, 16, and 17, the front of 9 green.  Some rough between the fairway and bunkers.  Those moments of; if the ball could roll a bit more, sure, it's in the fairway, but now it's even further out of position.  In the case of 5, 7, and 13, if the ball rolled more, it would entice more to go for the greens in 2 to well protected bunkers.  The rough along slopes that could be speed slots take that out of consideration.   For wise mortals. 
-Net effect, it's a challenge, a brute, but not always fun. 
-The Par 3s are indeed great.  Different lengths, different questions.
-The 1966 opening hole used to be today's #4.  On a slow day, I've played the front with 4 as 1, and 1-3 being the original 7-9.  Today's 3rd hole  makes a fabulous 9th hole.  Now that I know this, I can't un see this. 
-To my amateur eye, I would love to have #4 once again be #1, and shorten it by 50 yards.  The green is fronted by two giant bunkers, and runs front to back left.  I swear it's designed more for a wedge or 9 iron second shot, vs today which for me could be a 6-4iron depending on the wind. 
-Montauk used to be grasslands, so aesthetically if there were unlimited funds, tree and shrub removal and large swaths of native grasses to frame holes on the rolling terrain would be incredible.  They have recaptured some of this looking back from the 12th green (best view on the course), the right of 13 fairway, left of 18 fairway.  Simple, rustic, gorgeous. 


Overall, I dream of what it could be.  I look toward Pasatiempo, Lawsonia Links, Southern Pines as models of outstanding public access facilities.  Not the same pedigree of architecture, but with some love, it could be a golf destination, not golf while at a destination.  Spruce up the clubhouse (which functions, but seems like Charlton Heston from Planet of the Apes will come out to be your Starter), add a lobster roll shack, add some cabins (there is a bunch of land out there), shorten #1 and expand practice putting green, let's just redo the course since we are dreaming, or renovate it, it could be where golf is heading.  I love the place, so say all of this out of love.


Some more positives, I don't have a ton of RTJ course experience, but when played from the right tees, Montauk Downs makes a ton of sense.  There are speed slots on sloping fairways, and as mentioned on the par 5s, a solid drive sets you up for a risk reward question on each one.  I just think it can all be pushed a little more in the direction the design intended, and be a fun challenge.  That said, the greens roll great, and they've been improving year after year. 


Come out and see us this year!!!!  (Just do it before June or after Labor Day!)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 08:28:21 PM by Peter Gannon »

Jeff Evagues

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2022, 10:46:45 PM »
About 30 years ago I hit a nice drive on 11 not far from the green. While waiting for the rest of the group to hit, we watched a red fox come out of the woods on the left, pick up my ball and trot back into the woods.
Be the ball

Josh Bills

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2022, 01:01:56 PM »
Here are some historic aerials showing the course pre 1947.


1930 (had to paste two images together)




1938



1947


Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2022, 02:38:25 PM »
Nice post!!


So what the heck happened from 1938 to 1947? Obviously WWII was going on, but it does bring back the old "The Montauk Project" theories :) https://www.ranker.com/list/facts-about-time-travel-and-the-montauk-project/jacob-shelton


I think the creepy tower is still there:


"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Peter Gannon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2022, 04:01:35 PM »
The "Stanger Things" tower is definitely still there.  The entire grounds of Camp Hero are there, in tact, and super creepy!  The ticks in the wild brush are the biggest deterrent from really enjoying it as hiking and park land.   The trails lead to souring bluffs above the Atlantic are quite dramatic and beautiful.
 
Apparently, a routing was done for Camp Hero (which, to me is the coolest golf club name I've heard, Camp Hero Golf Club), but it was too tough a sell for local businesses and environmental considerations.
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/01/02/nyregion/state-plan-for-camp-hero-cabins-assailed.html

Maybe a sustainable, off the energy grid, public recreational, minimal, leave it better than you found it new approach could some day be made?

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Montauk Downs Changes
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2022, 07:03:42 AM »
Maybe a sustainable, off the energy grid, public recreational, minimal, leave it better than you found it new approach could some day be made?


Peter,


It is so tough to make these things work out there with a public model, and that is what Montauk should be - IMO. I really just re-discovered Montauk and the cliffs along the Peconic. I need to hike with my son down on Camp Hero next...


Thanks for all your great input. I will shoot you a message about playing at Montauk - when it gets warmer!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

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